October 2018 McDougall Weigh In Thread

[Mark Cooper]

Hi all,
I have a question: in reviewing chapters in the MWL audio book, pasta is a not allowed on the MWL plan, but whole grain type is ok on the original McDougall diet. Then I found one of Jeff Novick's Calorie Density videos on YouTube and near the e end he stated whole wheat pasta was ok on three MWL diet - the only pasta exception. I thought: cool, would allow me to make my no oil-added version of pasta fagioli.
is whole wheat pasta ok?

For my goals to lose at a moderate rate or better: If ww pasta is allowed, I can likely have it sparingly. It's taken me forever to start losing again.

Alice

Hi Alice,

The information below is from a previous MWL thread

Question: is whole wheat pasta MWL approved?

From Dr. McDougall's MWL book, it says no flour products, however Jeff has a slightly different opinion in that it is reconstituted with water and thus has had its calorie density brought back down.

Some people can really overeat pasta (like me), but if that isn't you then it can be a great part of your plan, especially once you are close to or at your natural body weight. (I never know how to put that...goal weight, best weight, I hope you know what I mean )

Program outlined in the MWL book, page 60.
1. Eliminate All Animal Foods
2. Eliminate All Oils
3. Eliminate All High Fat Plant Foods: Nuts, Nut Butters, Seeds, Seed Butters, Avocados, Coconut, & Olives.
4. Eliminate All Flour Products
5. Eat Whole Grains and Potatoes
6. Eat Legumes
7. Make Green & Yellow Vegetables One-Half to One-Third of your meal
8. Eat Uncooked Foods
9. Restrict Fresh Fruit to No More Than Two Servings a Day, and Avoid Dried Fruit, Fruit Puree, and Fruit Juice
10. Use Simple Sugar Sparingly

And the following clarifies Jeff's view on the subject -

Pasta is one of the exceptions to the “avoid flour products” guidelines and that is why it is not listed and the guidelines says “higher calorie density foods”. Unlike other flour products, that are fairly dry and calorie dense, when pasta is cooked, it absorbs quite a bit of water into its structure, lowering the calorie density to about the same as Brown rice.

The only potential issue with it is that flour products have been ground up so some people may find that pasta is not as satiating as another intact whole grain of the same calorie density. If you find this to be true, just make sure you always make it primavera style (with vegetables) and using there 50/50 is a good guideline. Ironically, in the actual satiety study, it was one of the higher foods for satiety along with the potatoe and oatmeal.

[JeffN]

There have been a few (not many) changes to the program over the years, as with recommended supplements for heart disease, probiotics, etc. Yes, you can refer back to the newsletter on supplements but it does not represent our current position. Several things have changed since the original MWL book has come out and since the MWL newsletter which updated the book.

If you have questions about what we are doing at the program right now (and/or about what I have said or not), the best thing to do is to ask me. I am right here.

We do allow pasta, but like tortilla's, it is one of those very rare "gray' areas on the MWL.

The original MWL guidelines said "No flour products," however, from the beginning, corn tortilla's (made from corn flour) have been allowed in spite of the fact that they have a calorie density of around 1000 cal/lb. Ironically, I have never recommended them as part of my weight loss guidelines because of the calorie density. The same for puffed cereals.

On the other hand, whole grain pasta, also a flour product, was not part of the original MWL program in spite of the calorie density of only around 550-600, almost half of corn tortilla's. However, for 30 years of my career, (including 10 years at overseeing the food and nutrition at Pritikin), I have always allowed WG pasta and people successfully lost weight. Remember, I also recommended that people follow the 50/50 plate so if pasta is your starch, make sure you include lots of non-starchy vegetables. In the same study that showed the potato to be the highest in satiety per calorie, whole grain pasta was right behind it (and oatmeal) and above brown rice.

Some say they overeat on it and if you find that to be true for you, then just leave it out, but then again, some say they overeat on brown rice, so, if so, just leave it out.

Currently, at the 10-Day program, whole grains pasta is marked MWL while corn tortilla's are not.

In Health
Jeff

[alicect]

Thank you Mark Cooper, amandamechele, and JeffN for cutting through the confusion and clarifying how whole wheat pasta can be part of today's MWL plan.

I love the discussion board!

If you have questions about what we are doing at the program right now (and/or about what I have said or not), the best thing to do is to ask me. I am right here

That is extremely helpful. To not be alone trying to interpret the MWL plan, and to be able to "go right to the source" means a lot. It's so hard to discard the weight after years of yo-yo dieting and discouraging after trying many plans only to gain more in the end. I described in my 1st post to this board that almost a year ago now, I got serious and decided to go full on and commit to eating plant-based whole foods and I have been gathering info and working at this lifestyle ever since. Although I am an RN for many years (means nothing nutrition-wise, I know ), the term "calorie density" and what that means -seems to be the major key to eating well that I've been missing.

Thank you Mark for posting the previous thread - it really helps.

Some people can really overeat pasta (like me), but if that isn't you then it can be a great part of your plan, especially once you are close to or at your natural body weight. (I never know how to put that...goal weight, best weight, I hope you know what I mean )

I get what you mean. I am no where near my goal weight yet, I am coming off a 6+ month weight loss plateau at this point. Just would like to add pasta now and again to meals if I can tolerate it. Over the past few months, I finally got used to eating whole grain instead of regular semolina "white" pasta. After hearing from you and JeffN, I am going to try to sparingly add whole wheat pasta occasionally for meals with vegetables as JeffN suggests and if my weight loss stalls, I will likely have to cut it out again.

What you all are doing with the MWL plan is so important, thank you!

[VegSeekingFit]

Hi to the Group!!!

Amy, Thank you so much for that link to HDT New Yorker article! As such, I have to amend my prior comment to -- I like some of his well-known quotes... I probably read Walden in Jr. High and don't think I had the maturity to appreciate some of these finer points that would (probably) lead me to wondering.... Hmm... Maybe will give it a go with fresh eyes... Your Thanksgiving dinner looks wonderful!!!

Idgie, WOW - that is awesome!! You have worked hard and lowest adult weight is something to be so proud of!! Woo-hoo!!!

Mark, Hoping you have good results - glad you are feeling a bit better! Take care!

Moonlight, Steady is good!! Building great habits... I like your index card idea... may borrow it !! Not corny at all -- very good plan!!! Love it!!

Choufleur, great attitude and plan!! Onward!!

Hi Rosey! Hope your feet are feeling ok...

Hey Yomom! Relating to the snack thing... Also struggling with the same level of exercise in crummy weather.... Hang in!!

Yay, OOnaOwl!!! Glad your motivation is up!!

Hey Belcimo, Hawaii sounds awesome!! Glad to see you back!!

Congrats, Moonspirit!!

Way to go, Lyndzie!!!

Awesome, Alicect!! Great questions too -- and some helpful answers! I feel like I always learn on this thread!!

OMG - great info from Jeff N! I am so happy to hear on mindful inclusion of WW pasta (haven't had pasta all year since I started this journey)... watching JN's Calorie Density talk has helped me tremendously on my journey!! In fact, I made several trade-off's in food - one specifically was removing puffed cereal (which was something I was using as a daily snack when I started) - results improved dramatically after I watched this and acted on it.

My first week since June (when I joined group) that I missed weigh in. Have been working to maintain and "get a life"... Not as exciting to report in a small gain... than when the scale is going down.. down... down... (who knew?? ) I'll report next week my net gain / loss starting from last week (when I weighed on time) - hope this is ok.
~For this week, focusing on eating favorite minimally processed starch, veggies, fruit. Have stocked them, prepped some, and will be bringing plenty to work (and keeping in fridge at home) -- to ensure compliant well-liked foods on hand - crowding out Snack Monster... Also, planning to walk 20 miles this week. Tracking on paper (since miles will be mainly on treadmill...). If no loss next week, will also revert back to food diary.
~Funny thing this week -- my son called me "crock pot crazy"... and it was a fair statement... but that does mean that I focused on MWL foods (although not perfect)…

Wishing everyone a wonderful week!!

Cheers,
Stephanie

[Rosey]

There have been a few (not many) changes to the program over the years, as with recommended supplements for heart disease, probiotics, etc. Yes, you can refer back to the newsletter on supplements but it does not represent our current position. Several things have changed since the original MWL book has come out and since the MWL newsletter which updated the book.

If you have questions about what we are doing at the program right now (and/or about what I have said or not), the best thing to do is to ask me. I am right here.

We do allow pasta, but like tortilla's, it is one of those very rare "gray' areas on the MWL.

The original MWL guidelines said "No flour products," however, from the beginning, corn tortilla's (made from corn flour) have been allowed in spite of the fact that they have a calorie density of around 1000 cal/lb. Ironically, I have never recommended them as part of my weight loss guidelines because of the calorie density. The same for puffed cereals.

On the other hand, whole grain pasta, also a flour product, was not part of the original MWL program in spite of the calorie density of only around 550-600, almost half of corn tortilla's. However, for 30 years of my career, (including 10 years at overseeing the food and nutrition at Pritikin), I have always allowed WW pasta and people successfully lost weight. In the same study that showed the potato to be the highest in satiety per calorie, whole grain pasta was right behind it (and oatmeal) and above brown rice.

Some say they overeat on it and if you find that to be true for you, then just leave it out, but then again, some say they overeat on brown rice, so, if so, just leave it out.

Currently, at the 10-Day program, whole grains pasta is marked MWL while corn tortilla's are not.

In Health
Jeff

What about the brown rice pasta?

[Rosey]

Hi Rosey! Hope your feet are feeling ok...

My feet are still being an issue but not as bad since I've been drinking more water. My BUN level was low on my blood work and when I read about that one of symptoms of that is my swelling feet and legs.

[Stacey]

Hey- I told Amy I was going to post this week. Hello all- sorry for disappearing. I had reservations. And as of now, I am only committing for October. Let's thing short term goals here. Because really this is all a progression and process.

I will continue like last time of reporting and just being counted as a zero for the weigh in part. As of now I am not even going to be measuring myself.

The concept that matters to me right now is just the mindset of the weight loss process. And, mentally I am not even going to refer to it as weight loss because I think the word "weight" is troublesome. I will use it in this forum though so that I am easily understood. I have been in the weight loss game for the past ten years. I have been successfull I would say around 8 times. Well I want to stop being successful. I am not able to lose weight or start to see my abs and feel proud and let it stay. I want to be lean and I want to feel lean but I don't want to recognize that I am lean. Every single time I start recognizing that I am getting leaner or when I am proud I stop doing to actions that get me there. So if it is not working I am going to stop it. Simple.

I know how to get lean, and I know how to do it. So I am going to do it.

So the main goal that I have in writing on this medium is that I just want to connect with others regarding challenges towards goals.

I was thinking along the lines of going after a six pack was similar to going after an A on a test. Which I never did, and yet in school I usually had a 3.6 gpa. I like being thorough. I like being detailed oriented. But as soon as I go after the "results" that I want I am guaranteed to miss out on success. And this is interesting because while I was having a bike ride the other day I was thinking about my motivations. And I realized my motivations are not aesthetic based. They never have been. For example, I used to work on pushups. I could do a lot of them, and then one day I happened to have my glasses on and my shirt off, and I noticed my shoulders. It was awesome. And, what happened? I stopped doing pushups. I am not afraid of looking good, or being lean, being thin. It is something else entirely. I get more motivated on what my body can do or what I want it to be able to do.

Just a word about food: I live on vegetables, millet, oats and apples. I am completely oil free and I never go out. So I am completely compliant.

So this is my October experiment. Focus on all the things that I know I am doing right, and work on only positive thinking and let nature takes its course. When I start to feel or realize positive changes, I will share, and I will work on embracing and nothing else.

I hope every one is having a good week.

[amandamechele]

My apologies for not getting back to everyone this weekend.

Idgie - It's great to hear that you're loving keeping things simple. It is so much easier to keep up and quite inexpensive! (I will be on the lookout for when you do post a delicious recipe or two however!)

Belinda - Sounds like you had an awesome vacation. So jealous! How has the week been going so far? Any troubles with getting back on plan? It can be a bit bumpy after being away for some of us, but it's doable, it just may take a few tries.

Becca - I totally don't think that's TMI. Looking great in the little things (hee hee) is a big reason many of us are here. It's not all about the health...LOL. Good loss this week. I love that potato salad recipe, Chuck's recipes are great.

Lindsey - Good loss, you've been really good at consistently losing weight. That's your adherence showing!

Alice - Great loss this week. I'm happy to see that you were provided with some clarification on your query from Jeff and Mark. It's a great question because the answer isn't exactly the same for every person. Best wishes with your experimentations with pasta. I'd love to hear how it goes.

Moonlight - I absolutely LOVE those index cards! All of them. What a great idea.

Stephanie - My pleasure and thank you. I'm happy to be through Thanksgiving (I hope that doesn't sound like I didn't enjoy it - I did, immensely so), I am working hard at very close adherence thus not having any extra social events and temptation is sooo helpful for the first few months of developing new patterns....because Christmas is coming and for success during that period of time I'd better have the food allowances locked down and the cravings locked up.
I almost sent you a message when you didn't weigh in, but I wondered if that would have been pushy, so I'm glad you checked in anyway. Never worry about being late every once in awhile, it's super easy to adjust the tally. I just want everyone to feel the need to come and check in because the accountability, without judgement, may just keep your motivation to stay on track ever so slightly higher. And to win this battle (or maintain) it takes the culmination of potentially hundreds (thousands?) of small changes that increase success probabilities by fractions of a percent. As Becca said above, in another context, it is the little things!

Rosey - I would say that brown rice pasta falls into the same situation as whole wheat pasta. It's a bit higher calorie density than some other starches, but still fine if you don't have a propensity to eat more of it than you would a potato or actual brown rice. Eating too much of it, or too often, could slow down weight loss and the point of the MWL plan is to try and lose weight as efficiently as possible without compromising satiety. I am going to personally experiment with it (possibly) when I get to maintenance.

Stacey - Your October experiment is a wonderful thing! I'm glad to see you checking in, reservations and all. Have you ever read Carol Dweck's book Mindset? Dr. Lisle (the McDougall staff psychologist) has mentioned that Carol's work helped guide him to his concept of The Ego Trap. Here's a TED talk you may enjoy Carol Dweck: The Power of Believing that You can Improve. I feel like I know exactly how you feel and it sounds a bit like the ego trap. Here is Dr. Lisle's McDougall Webinar called Dare to be Lousy which may also ring true to how you feel. (It may not, so forgive me if this just isn't the case). If you end up watching either of these, let me know what you think.

Did anyone catch the Dr. Lisle's Forks Over Knives presentation this week? I was only able to join at the very end for the question period. How was the talk?

[Stacey]

Hello Amy- yup, I watched it, and that sums things up well. It is interesting, I am working on my application for a masters degree in education right now, so as an educator the talk was very intriguing.

I am sure that having trouble believing in yourself can affect all areas of your life. My past is riddled with failed attempts- being suspended from college multiple times will do that to you. And I am realizing that I approach everything in life as a diligent student. I have restarted keeping track of all of my workouts and the details related to it in a notebook, and I am going to be a lot more diligent in my attempts.

So, thank you, and I will keep on working.

Stacey

[Idgie]

I've gone up and down a bit this week, but the net result is a loss of 1.6 pounds, down to a total of 45 lost since June. Woot-woot!

[squealcat]

I was "missing in action" last week and back again this week. My husband and I spent a few days in the upper part of lower Michigan last week. The colors were amazing !! We had a great time !

This week I have gained 2.2 pounds . I know my weight goes up and down, up and down......I am getting very good at maintaining ! I am ready now to start losing again.....I hope my body and mind are aware of that.

Glad to be back! I have to go back and read all the past posts now to catch up !

I did read Jeff's post about pasta and I think that is on the menu today.

-Marilyn (squealcat)

[Yomom]

Minus one pound for me, back to 143#.
I am feeling the mental and emotional fatigue of the season however, in having to resist the goodies when out & about.

[Lyndzie]

I am up +1.1 lbs today, but I’m guessing it’s mostly water because I had a bunch of Asian food yesterday, with lots of soy sauce.

Today I got back into my regular, pre-pregnancy clothes! Underwear, tank tops, sweaters and even a pair of jeans (the other ones won’t button yet, but at least a I could get them over my hips)! After a year of stretchy pants, this feels great. Going shopping today to get some additional items, and my birthday is on Sunday.

I was asked to help organize our local VegGiving, the annual vegan Thanksgiving celebration here. Lots of CRAP, for sure, but great to help people move away from the animal products.

Best to everyone this week, and continued success and compliance!

[Rosey]

from 268.8 lbs to 268.3 lbs for .5 lb loss. I'll take what ever loss my body will give me at moment.

[Stacey]

Hello all- I am happy to report that I am feeling much more positive about all of this. It is odd to be the only one who is not doing the scale thing. But I know what works for me. Back when I was in college, I went to the gym everyday in the afternoon. This was during my first year and I had a wondering as to how much I weighed. The scale was on the other side of the locker room and it was one of those antique ones with the dial. I got on that thing, with clothes and shoes on, and it read 109! I completely stressed out and went back to the dorm and had cake with dinner. There was no way I was going to weigh 109. ( I had recently been through a stressful thing where I did not eat much, so that was why). But I later normalized at 118. That is the weight I always enjoyed being at.

As I got older, I started to tolerate things less and less, and I wanted a better quality existence. I went vegan when I was 25. I was on Christmas break from college, and I was cozy in my bed one night nerding out on Neal Barnard and Mcdougall books. That was the night that I realized that if I went vegan I would be able to go to the bathroom. Oh my goodness, I was sold. So I switched then and there.

But it was not till later that I was able to make the full switch to the no oil vegan way of eating. There were lots of obstacles between time, and boys that got in the way. I am 40 now, and I did the no oil switch about 7 years ago. My goal was always to have consistent elimination. I wish though that I would have told the universe that I wanted to eliminate daily and be lean. It does not feel fair that when I felt worse I was super lean. Now, I feel pretty wonderful all the time, and I have had a new normal in my body for too long.

But it is crazy when I talk to others about this, like my sister... she is like, " but you work out all the time, and many women would love to look like you." Yes, sister, thank you. (sarcasm)

But I don't, and can't use the scale... just like when I was 20 I have freak out moments with the numbers. And if it is a "good" number it is even worse because I know it won't stay. And I have had worse times getting lean when I am "trying".

So, that is why I was hesitant to do this because I thought it would be too much like trying. But, I realized yesterday, that I can be part of a positive group and I can just work on this goal in the way it suits me. I think the thing that has been missing is the positive tone. So i think this will be a good thing.

I am in awe of all of you who can get on the scale each week and be mentally ok. Good job, and I hope all of you have a good week. Remember with all the holiday stuff, there are always healthy recipes that we can use. For everything.

I am happy to report that I am diligently logging everything. I am not going to measure myself today. I did that last week and was very frustrated. There is a cm that has been going back and forth. So I will resist. Last night I ate a bit less millet, and I was still crazy full from all the vegetables I ate. I am going to work on being less full tonight.

I have these cargo pants that I have looped the measuring tape into the belt loops. I thought it was brilliant to do that. That spot comes to my body in a place that i have no psychological attachment to at all, and yet they don't fit me, and I want them to.

My goals are just to keep working diligently like I am and to keep writing everything down. I think the writing action is going to be the key.

Thank you everyone, and have an awesome weekend.

Stacey