McDougall versus Fuhrman

[Heretic]

... All FREE!!! What a blessing!!!!! My hat is off to Dr McDougall, Mary McDougall, Jeff Novik, and all the wonderful people who post their experiences, suggestions and share their knowledge. May blessings rain down forever on the lot of 'em!!!!!!

You made some good points! Best of all, our hosts do not seem to feel offended and still let it post when somebody disagrees or even not follows their diet.

As someone said it is not as important what exactly you believe in - rather WHY you believe...

Oh, almost forgot this part. As initially suggested by TanneryGulch, and my doctor agrees (as so do I) the cause of my sugar issue is likely something like (if not exactly) sugar insensitivity not insulin resistance. I for sure have zero IR (from McDougall diet). No matter how high my bg goes (225 is record test so far and that was after about 4 cups of potatoes and a cup of beans testing to see if vinegar would work as "advertised". NOT) it comes right back down in an hour or so. So I have no IR and obviously make plenty of insulin. Just that my body does not read normal fluctuations of sugar as needing any control. My control mechanisms do not start to kick in until I am well outside the normal levels. So being further blessed w/ some great resources in this regard, testing is under way to figure out where that is happening or rather not happening in my body. ...

Your case seems to be similar to curve 6 on the following graph: http://www.ptbo.igs.net/~stanb/Abrahamson_6hGTT.gif
This is called "dysinsulinism". Does your BG also drops to very low levels after 3h? This is indeed different from a classical IR (curve 2). There are other factors than insulin and IR, that may influence glucose metabolism, you may want to look at magnesium level, and vitamins C and D3 levels (D3 governs over calcium transport and calcium, magnesium as well as vit C are necessary for glucose metabolism). D3 but not D2, at least not to the same extent, watch out! I am not an expert in biochemistry, I am only suggesting what you may want to look at, to test and study in more details. I hope it helps.

Stan (Heretic)

[Kierr]

Geoffrey, Lady and Ncy said it all for me. I feel the same way.

The fact that Dr. McDougall, his wife, Dr. Novick and more make all this available for free, in the true interest of caring about others above their revenue speaks volumes about their character. I understand some things cost money, bottom line, but for those things they are able to share, and do, makes all the difference to those like me. I am extremely grateful!

[xetaprime]

I am also very grateful! And have learned a lot here.

[Greenajah]

Yes, I'm grateful too for the wealth of information on this site - from Dr. McDougall and the other posting members. It's also good to know that about Dr. Fuhrman - I have his book but thought there's no way I can eat 99% fruits/veggies and I didn't like that he has most of his information for sale on his site. I'm glad someone posted about her experience with it all. I think I'll stay here

[ncyg46]

i had a amazon coupon so I ordered Furhman's new 2 book set. It was horrible, specially with what it cost. I thought I would be getting new recipes in the second book but what it contained was eggs, oil, meat and stuff that he sells on his site. Instead of new recipes he had one recipe per page in big type, most were from his first book and the others were member contributions from his PAID website membership board. The recipe book didn't even contain an index! The set went back to Amazon the next day, what a joke!! He is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!

I am soooo appreciative of Dr. McDougall, Mary and all that this site provides....

[Greenajah]

Wow!!!! I remember seeing that 2 book set and thought it looked pricey so I passed on it. Now I'm really glad I did - I can't believe he would have recipes with animal products and old recipes from his first book, etc. Tacky!!!! Dr. McDougall and Mary McDougall rock!!!!

[boardn10]

Tangelo,

Nothing wrong with Furhman's theory. The big difference is that McDougall is based on following pretty much some very successfully proven real world diets. Or in other words we know a billion chinese can thrive on rice, south american cultures can survive on sweet potatoes, Europeans in the not too distant past survived on Barley and other grains. Not sure who is the example of surving on spinach.
You say it yourself that you can do ESL for a couple of days before feeling deprived.
IMO McDougall is right. However, if you can follow ESL there are great rewards comming. McDougall is proven and does not lead to percieved deprivation, so McDougall is the one to keep. Have fun with your couple of days here and there with ESL, couldn't hurt, I guess.

Of these cultures, how many also ate some meat? I personally don't see a problem with eating a little meat once in a while, emphasizing a little! On the other hand, I ned grains, potatoes, etc. I need lots of these because I have a very fast metabolism and work out lot so I just can't stay satisfied or fuel myself on mostly veggies. I tend to eat a sald in a large mixing bowl, and then still have plenty of room for the main course so mostly veggies would leave me eating almost non stop. LOL. I eat loads of veggies now but grains are a huge part as well.

[r-marie]

After approximately 7 months on McDougall diet just got back glucose tolerance test from LabCorp.

75 gm of pure glucose (with nasty fake cherry flavor--like Robitussin or worse)

fasting: 82 (it has been gradually dropping in last few weeks from mid 90's)
1/2 hour: 114
1 hour: 103
2 hour: 86
3 hour: 100

About as normal as a human can be! Have to check my A1c soon just for fun but it must be way down...

Congratulations Geoffrey. I remember what a hard time you gave JeffN fretting over the frequent bs 'spikes' you got from eating this way. Glad it worked out for you

[Steve]

Of these cultures, how many also ate some meat? I personally don't see a problem with eating a little meat once in a while, emphasizing a little! On the other hand, I ned grains, potatoes, etc. I need lots of these because I have a very fast metabolism and work out lot so I just can't stay satisfied or fuel myself on mostly veggies. I tend to eat a sald in a large mixing bowl, and then still have plenty of room for the main course so mostly veggies would leave me eating almost non stop. LOL. I eat loads of veggies now but grains are a huge part as well.

I think all cultures eat meat. In the West the amount of meat might be a function of affluence. Until the potato famine ruined the potato crop in Ireland the less affluent subsisted mainly on potatoes. I am sure the wealthier could afford more meat. My Grandfather was born in 1899 in what was called "White Russia". He told me that they had one meal a day, not three. That the meal was always cabbage soup. He said that one day a week they put a piece of meat in the soup. Not a big piece. He came to the US in 1913. He told me that he went to work as a house painter and earned a dollar a day. He would eat at a restaurant in New York every day and would get a small loaf of bread and a piece of meat, nothing fancy but meat. His dinner cost I believe 12 cents . He thought that was really living. So his meat consumption went up dramatically. I think it might be a function of affluence. I mean once he started earning a good wage he was able to eat meat every day.
Ironic, that I can afford meat, but I am trying to eat the cabbage soup without the meat for health.
As far as eating a little bit of meat being healthy, I guess that depends on where you are starting from. If I was facing dialysis, Osteoporosis or a heart bypass operation I cannot see how any amount of meat is healthy. On the other hand if I had eaten rice based diet in China for my entire life, maybe small amounts of meat and fish are no real concern. Of course if I was on the rice based diet I doubt I would be concerned about these issues at all. I came to needing the change after eating enough meat to last me a lifetime.
Steve

[f1jim]

It's where we are coming from. If our diet up till now was a very healthy plant based diet, and I had no health issues or weight problems, I would think small amounts of animal proteins would be fine. Unfortunately, how many people in the U.S.A. does that apply to? The studies on our soldiers killed in action shows most all of them suffer from significant heart disease in their late teens and 20's!!! What does that say about most of us in our 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's? I had enough meat in my first 51 years to feed a small country!! Trying to eat like I had been eating healthy all my life would be a recipe for disaster in my case. I have to eat like I want to unravel the unhealthy knot that I have created, not pretend it doesn't exist. My first 50 years were an orgy to deli meats, red meats, oils and fats, and even my share of refined carbs. What is best for me at this stage of health is to eat optimally, not what would be "okay" for someone living in rural China or Ecuador. They have the benefit of many more years of healthy eating.
f1jim

[PiPhi1993]

I too did ETL prior to McDougall. There were a couple of things that I personally found difficult, although I overall have great respect for Dr. Fuhrman and I think it is a healthy diet.

1. 2-3 meals daily and no snacks on ETL vs. encouraged grazing/snacks on McDougall. I found that I was STUFFING myself at meals because I knew I couldn't eat until the next meal on ETL. I feel like I'm doing better at eating until I'm satisfied on McDougall, knowing I can eat again if I need too.

2. Nuts vs no nuts. I found that the nuts were an extremely slippery slope for me - stopping at the small amount, especially peanut butter, was so hard. Now that I'm not eating it at all on McDougall, I don't miss it!

3. Unlimited fruit vs 1-2 pieces per day (I'm doing MWL) - again, it was way too easy to overindulge - especially mixing up bananas/cherries into "ice cream" in the blender - which was delicious, but wayyyy to easy to overindulge.

4. This is an embarressing one...um, I had some serious lower intestinal "distress" on ETL. To be specific, oh my god, the gas. Horrible. Probably the beans. But it nearly drove my poor husband out of house and home. It was really terrible, and no amount of beano seemed to help. I'm eating TONS of raw veggies on Max Weight Loss, and with the exception of over indulging on raw broccoli or raw cabbage, I have not had any issues with gas. Thank goodness!

[susie]

I too was a member of the Fuhrman board,but left at much the same time as Nancy did. I felt that the board was not supportive and unless you were able to attend his special events, you were not appreciated. Most of the people crash and burn on the nuts and avocadoes. Now I love avos passionately and will eat them on occasion, I know that I am better off without them.

I live in Australia and the paid board was getting rather expensive. Luckily I did not buy ythe eat for health book. He also says that people with immune disorders should take large doses of fish oil! I tried it, I just gained weight.

I emailed Dr McDougall and received an immediate reply to clarify a matter. How good is that for a free service! Post on Ask The Doctor on the fuhrman board and it takes days for a very curt reply!

[Nettie]

...
I emailed Dr McDougall and received an immediate reply to clarify a matter. How good is that for a free service! Post on Ask The Doctor on the fuhrman board and it takes days for a very curt reply!

You are so right, Susie. I have had the same experience. I don't need to pay for a "service" where I don't feel much warmth. I get enough abuse in the real world without going looking for it online.

I, too, favor the McDougall diet, where I can eat until satisfied.

Nettie

[Starchyme]

I'm a 100% McDougall devotee. I love his program and am in accord with his teachings and also all he stands for.

However, in all fairness to Dr. Fuhrman, he has 7789 paid members; so he and his diet must be hitting a chord with some folks.

[Melinda]

Susie, I am so glad to see you back here! I have really missed your posts! Hope all is well with you.