Is there a McDougall equivalent for dentists/dentistry?

[Thrasymachus]

Sometime in 2019(or it could have been late 2018) I was diagnosed with a bunch of cavities(like 4-6 total), so many that it made me suspicious because since I became an adult I never had a cavity. I very slowly got like 2 or three filled that bothered me, but since I didn't take care of it sooner due to my lack of trust of dentists, they have gotten much worse. Now I definitely will likely need a wisdom tooth removed and like 1-3 teeth have cavities that could need root canals(and that was the prognosis months ago back in June and I still haven't had them worked on). I am pretty sure several will need root canals now and I hear that they are burden to your immune system and likely won't last forever. I tried using this online service that you upload your x-rays and photos of your teeth to for a second opinion on dental matters without a financial stake, but I can't find a dentist that does dental photography locally or take good enough pics on my own and I wasted months procrastinating trying this service.

I think the issue is starting in early 2018 I got a new job in Hoboken, NJ and I have been drinking lots of sugary drinks to try to gain weight since there are so many places I can buy drinks in walking distance.

There is something wrong with me, I screwed up my teeth so bad with this procrastinating even though I had good dental insurance. I don't know what to do regarding dental matters and I have indecision and analysis paralysis in general.

Is there a McDougall equivalent for dentists/dentistry?

[Daydream]

I don't know about a McDougall equivalent for dentists but if I were you I would get a second opinion from seeing another dentist. Many years ago when I moved to a new area and went to a new dentist, he told me I had a cavity which didn't make sense because before I moved I had gone to my old dentist and had no cavities (and hadn't had any cavities in decades since I go to the dentist every 6 months). So I went to another new dentist and told him what the other dentist said and he examined me, looked at my x-rays and told me I did NOT have any cavities! Yes, it cost me money to see another dentist for a second opinion but it was worth it and I found a good dentist with that second opinion. If you have friends or family that have a dentist they like, get a referral from them. It's important that you find a dentist that you trust.

[Thrasymachus]

@Daydream:

I already feel I got a second opinion by using that online service where I uploaded my x-rays for outside evaluation. I definitely have some serious cavities and you can even see black spots of decay on some of my teeth and they have a foul odor. I read this article from the Atlantic about a crooked dentist and how dentistry as practiced is not really evidence based and is really more of an art:

The Atlantic: The Truth About Dentistry: It’s much less scientific—and more prone to gratuitous procedures—than you may think

Also I don't think asking your friends or family for dentist or doctor references will actually lead to a good dentist or doctor, as people don't know how to evaluate doctors or dentists.

[Vanilla Orchid]

Is there a dental school in your area? If so, you might want to go there. Most have clinics where the students work is supervised by their instructors. They have no incentive to overtreat you. Root canals are expensive. Untreated dental problems can cause all kinds of systemic problems you don't need.

From what you have said, you are already satisfied that you do have cavities and you already know you need treatment. Waiting will not make it any better. I'm not sure what you mean by a McDougall equivalent of a dentist. Do you mean one who recommends a plant based diet? There are plenty, but I've never heard of one saying you could cure cavities you already have by changing your diet.

[Dougalling]

Hello

You can contact a vegan society and ask them what you should know before going to a dentist.
Ask them which products are not vegan.
Ask them for alternatives.

That's all I know.

[Thrasymachus]

Oh sorry, I guess I never explained the McDougall equivalent of a dentist bit. From what I gather in dentistry there is a big component of a genetic determinist legacy: I get the impression that many of them believe if you are born with the wrong genes you will get lots of cavities and that there is nothing you can do about that. In the orthodontic realm if you are born with bad genes you’ll get crooked teeth. I want to find a dentist that will help me figure out why I suddenly got so many caries as an adult these last few years and how to avoid a repeat in the future. At my current dental practice they can't seem to answer why suddenly I got so many cavities or many of the questions I have.

I saw some ad for a mouthwash(I think it was called elemental silver) that had a slogan: sugar doesn't cause cavities acid does. I wonder if that is true, or what is the way to take care of your teeth on your own? That is what I meant by a McDougall like dentist; a dentist that helps you avoid the dentist and who doesn't believe in genetic determinism.

Also I am concerned that my regular dentist wants to do a root canal or more if I need them, I think I may ask him to just temporize the tooth in that case and I will go to a endodontist(they specialize in root canals) and likely pay more to get a root canal from a specialist.

@Vanilla Orchid:
I have dental insurance and money. Probably my deductible will run out for this year if I need one or more root canals, but I will pay out of pocket if I have to...

Yeah, I know waiting will not make it better, and I have already waited so long what would have been a simple cavity may have likely turned to a root canal. I was scheduled to get the fillings for the worst teeth sometime in March of this year. A day before I was suppossed to go in, the coronavirus closures screwed me and I couldn't get an appointment till June, but the dentist said something about needing a root canal or possible extraction so I just got some fillings on some other teeth that were part of my treatment plan. And I still haven't scheduled since then.

I have an appointment on the 22nd of this month, there is something wrong with me, I am kicking myself for letting these teeth rot for so long that I may now need a root canal judy because I don't trust dentists.

@Dougalling:
That is not what I meant by this thread. I am not sure if dentists use animal products, I doubt they do.

[Thrasymachus]

So I went to the dentist on October 22nd and I got 4 fillings. They were deep I never was in a dentist chair for fillings so long, he had to do a lot of drilling it seemed. I waited too long to get them worked on -- but thankfully I panicked over a root canal(s) or even a possible extraction for nothing. Then I went November 5th for a dental cleaning and they told me I had yet another cavity on the buccal side of tooth number 6(universal numbering system). I am going in November 19th to have that cavity taken care of.

Lately I keep falling asleep on the couch before I get a chance to brush my teeth, I wonder if that could be the reason?

I keep getting cavities and I have no idea why. They almost all seem to be by my gumlines where the root of my teeth should be. That is why I want to know if there is a McDougall equivalent of dentists. I want to know why I am getting all these cavities suddenly and to stop having any more.

[michaelswarm]

I got most of my cavities during my 30s and early 40s, after I started I drinking 3-4 cups of coffee throughout the day, before I was plant based. I have had no new cavities in the last decade, after going plant based, and reducing and stopping coffee. Some of the old fillings have needed replacement.

I have looked and have not found any plant based dentists, except one in Australia. No one with a web site and depth like Dr McDougall. Worth a listen for good general info.

https://www.corinnenijjer.com/the-podca ... ooth-decay
Tooth decay: sugar frequency. Avoid dried fruit, juices and smoothies. Eat whole fruit, occasionally.
Acid foods like citrus and vinegars soften the teeth. Do not brush for 1h after meal. Best to brush and floss in morning and evening, not after meals.

Would like to find a couple more plant based dentists and see how their opinions compare, but for now, this is all I have heard of.

[pundit999]

I keep getting cavities and I have no idea why. They almost all seem to be by my gumlines where the root of my teeth should be. That is why I want to know if there is a McDougall equivalent of dentists. I want to know why I am getting all these cavities suddenly and to stop having any more.

I am sorry to hear about your troubles with your teeth.

I had severe troubles with my distal lower molars seven years ago. The dentist at the time advocated that I got four teeth removed and have them replaced by implants. A mere expense of about 30K!

I had better ideas. I researched the subject extensively thinking there has to be another way. Similar to what you are dong now.

I found a book at Amazon: The Smile Method. I started following most of the advice there.
Seven years later, I still have all my teeth and all pain and periodic infections have gone away.

I follow a simple protocol. I don't know about your immediate issues but this is a good protocol to follow long term:
- Use Phillips Sonicare Electronic toothbrush.
- Use Arm and Hammer Toothpaste with baking Soda and Hydrogen peroxide.
- When I remember, I try and brush twice daily. Mostly it is just once.
- Use WaterPik with a little bit of hydrogen peroxide in the solution (say a 0.5 % H2O2 solution: 1 part 3% H2O2, 4 parts water), once a week.
- Get teeth irrigators from Smile Method: use the crooked syringe to irrigate your gaps with 1-3% H2O2 once a week. More if there is an infection.

About 10 min of extra work every week and many of your problems should go away.

[bestbatchyet]

Search Dr John Featherstone UCSF CAMBRA protocols

Dr Jorgen Slots UCLA Periodontal bleach

This will give you a good background on carries prevention and periodontal treatment that can be done at home for low cost.

Also search LSTR 3Mix-MP Therapy, an interesting treatment not widely available in the US

Sorry I can't help you find a good dentist to treat you. A difficult task.

[pundit999]

Search Dr John Featherstone UCSF CAMBRA protocols

Dr Jorgen Slots UCLA Periodontal bleach

This will give you a good background on carries prevention and periodontal treatment that can be done at home for low cost.

I went through some articles on CAMBRA and the Periodontal bleach.
Interesting stuff.
And the approach appears to be similar to what is detailed in the Smile Method.
The key is using an anti microbial solution to irrigate your periodontal pockets.
For the anti microbial solution, Hydrogen Peroxide works well. A bit of bleach in water also works (as in UCLA Periodontal bleach)

Since these pockets are difficult to get to, you will need a special irrigator.
VitaPick is the one recommended in the Smile Method:

https://livinglibations.com/products/vita-pik-gum-syringe


So
- use an electric toothbrush and Arm and Hammer toothpaste with Hydrogen Peroxide twice daily.
- While brushing use a 45 degree angle to get to your gum line a bit.
- And at least once a week irrigate your pockets through VitaPick and also through waterpik using 1-3% Hydrogen Peroxide.

[Lyndzie]

Thrasymachus, are you following Dr McDougall’s dietary recommendations? Drinking sugary drinks is not part of the guidelines, even if trying to gain weight.

Think of your dental issues in terms of heart disease. At some point heart disease can get so bad a person needs a cardiologist. Same thing with you teeth right now - the stent (fillings) are required due to damage sustained. Following his dietary advice will help prevent worsening decay.

Sounds like others have given you good advice on how to care for your teeth going forward. Best wishes, and avoid those drinks!

[chrisv]

My current dentist advertises as a 'holistic' dentist. He had plant-based books on a bookshelf in the waiting room, before the pandemic.

My old dentist retired and I needed some dental work, I had a tooth that had a root canal break off at the gum line and another tooth that the root was adsorbing, no fillings or cavities at all in that tooth. This dentist refers patients to an endodontist, and does not do any surgery himself. I was happy to find this dentist, I am almost finished with treatment for these two teeth.

He did some work on my chipped/cracked teeth that involved some kind of plastic/laser thing. I was happy with the results. He recommends some nonstandard toothpaste, and using diluted hydrogen peroxide.

It can be hard to find a dentist to trust. I trusted my old dentist, but felt like he was trying to push treatments that I was not sure were needed at times.

I am sure eating right helps. I ate a lot of candy when I was a kid, and didn't take good care of my teeth then.
.

[colonyofcells]

I brush and floss once a day. I buy whole leaf aloe vera powder or inner leaf aloe vera powder and put a little bit in water for gargle and mouthwash (I try to do after each meal to kill the bacteria after each meal, do not drink bec these usually contain a small amount of laxative, commercial american aloe vera juice filter out the laxative). The yellow bitter laxative is found in the outer leaf and the inner gel has only a small amount of laxative. I have not had cavities for 6 years with only 2 dentist visits (I hate the routine yearly dental x-rays and now there is a pandemic so I avoided dentists and opticians too). The trader joe's aloe vera juice old containers had label that said can be used as gargle and mouthwash so I tried it. There are commercial toothpaste and mouthwash with aloe vera. Many years ago, I spent a lot of money on 2 root canal procedures. I refused to use caps on my 2 teeth after the root canal procedures and my 2 teeth are still ok. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5045693/

[chrisv]

Colonyofcells, thanks for posting the Aloe Vera information.

I realized something when I read you refused to have a cap (crown) restoration on root canals. Years ago when I had a couple of root canals, my dentist said:

"We put crowns on teeth after a root canal because the tooth is weaker and may break."

If he had said:

"We usually put crowns on teeth after a root canal because the tooth is weaker and may break, but if there is enough structure so the tooth can be just restored with a filling that is possible, what do you want to do?" I would have said, just a filling.

I looked on PubMed and found: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26403154/

Authors' conclusions: There is insufficient evidence to assess the effects of crowns compared to conventional fillings for the restoration of root-filled teeth.

No one is going to research a way for dentists to decrease their income. My dentist could have said. "Although there is insufficient evidence to show a crown is better, it does increase my income."

At least I can be a better informed consumer if the situation happens again.