The lesser of 2 evils?

[Mom+Me]

I want to start by saying that I believe that the absolute best WOE is 100% adherence to the McDougall Plan 100% of the time.

But for those, like a family member of mine who isn't there yet (he's a vegetarian 98% of the time [will eat things with questionable broth], vegan 70-80% of the time, McDougall 50-80% of the time), what would be the lesser of 2 (or are there more?) evils in this situation:

He was just gifted a pie that he could easily eat over the course of 1 day or 2 days. Obviously the best thing would be to throw it away or "gift" it to someone else. But since he wants it, do you think it's better health-wise for him to go slow and eat only say an 8th of the pie a day or, since he'll be injuring his arteries each time, get it over with sooner?

This could apply really to a lot of things: when a co-worker of his whips up her homemade chocolate chip cookies and gives him a tin of them, or he occasionally buys a 10-16 ounce bag of potato chips.

He hasn't been to a Dr. in years, doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, and is very fit, trim, and active. Outwardly he is the picture of health, but I know that his b/p and cholesterol could very well be at dangerous levels. He's a grown man and at least eats as healthy as he does, but I am very concerned that it's not healthy enough. But we all know the saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

So, just to wrap it up, is continual injuring of the arteries with smaller quantities "better" (ugh--sounds awful!!), or rather consuming these things in 1-3 times so as to lessen the times of damage? Any research to back up one way or the other? I know how one fatty meal does damage. Thank you! By the way, there are days and days that he is 100% McDougall--hence my estimated 50-80% figure. And, as he has eaten better and better over the years, it is my hope that he'll continue to improve his habits.

[Grammy Ginger]

Overeating and binging is never a good idea.

[jay kaye]

IMO if a person is reasonable healthy the choice would be the food that is the least likely to to re-trigger The Pleasure Trap. Or in your scenario, don't drag out the exposure. So one and done. But understand that for someone that has serious artery damage just one high fat meal can trigger a heart attack.

J

[Dougalling]

Hi

Have a chat with him. Start with "I know that your health is your own business but since I care about you I'm going to stick my nose in it and say something. You can do whatever you please once I have my say. I know you look healthy on the outside, but skinny David Letterman ended up with a quadruple bypass. I would like you to get a physical. Everyone should get a physical every year whether they are healthy or not. You haven't had one in years. It's in your best interest to find out what is happening inside your own body. "

I sometimes think that some men don't want to go to the doctors office due to the prostate exam. A man can always refuse this part of the physical exam if that is the reason they are not getting physicals. It's better to have a physical without a prostate exam than never getting a physical at all.


Men need to start telling other men that they need to get physical exams.

[Lyndzie]

If you go with the 5% rule, then he has about 100 calories of wiggle room on a daily basis. If a person eats 2000 cal/day x 7 days, for a total of 14,000 calories, 5% is 700 cals, or one slice of pie. How he chooses to eat it is irrelevant.

Have you read Jeff’s post about cheating? It speaks to this very quandary. Eating a little McDougall but mostly just a SAD vegetarian is where he is right now. We all have our food journeys and I was on that path for a long time. Hopefully they will see you example and be motivated to make changes. Gifted food has been hardest for me to avoid, too.

[Mom+Me]

Overeating and binging is never a good idea.

Yes, I agree. The beauty of the McDougall Plan is that we can be volume eaters! The only problem is that when people eat off-plan foods, that volume eating can be easy to carry over. So for him to eat 1/4 of a pie 2 times in one day can be very easy to do and I think it's fair to say that he (and other people, especially the average SAD) wouldn't consider that as overeating or binging. Back in the day I even remember once in awhile eating a slice of fresh baked fruit pie (which this one is--err--was, apple) for breakfast.

[Mom+Me]

Overeating and binging is never a good idea.

Yes, I agree. The beauty of the McDougall Plan is that we can be volume eaters! The only problem is that when people eat off-plan foods, that volume eating can be easy to carry over. So for him to eat 1/4 of a pie 2 times in one day can be very easy to do and I think it's fair to say that he (and other people, especially the average SAD) wouldn't consider that as overeating or binging. Back in the day I even remember once in awhile eating a slice of fresh baked fruit pie (which this one is--err--was, apple) for breakfast.

When I say volume eating, he tends to eat about 2 meals a day. Not so much now in the hot weather, but he can eat 4 pounds of frozen off-the-cob corn cooked as a meal. So yeah, a 1/4 of a 7-8" pie is almost like nothing to him. Not to stick up for him...just explaining.

[Mom+Me]

IMO if a person is reasonable healthy the choice would be the food that is the least likely to to re-trigger The Pleasure Trap. Or in your scenario, don't drag out the exposure. So one and done. But understand that for someone that has serious artery damage just one high fat meal can trigger a heart attack.

J

Thank you for your thoughts, J. Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking--one and done, or maybe 2 or 3 and done in the case of the pie 1/3-1/2 at a time. Not only would that be better for exposure/The Pleasure Trap, but I was thinking maybe "better" for his health--less times of injuring his arteries, etc.???

But since he still does consume these things at times, maybe less more often (1/6-1/8th of a pie) would be "healthier"?? Argh--just typing this sounds so unhealthy...but this is the reality, that he's still not fully committed to The McDougall Plan ...yet; there's always hope!

[gracezw]

It is a questions of damage done by eating bigger portions or all of a SAD pie in a shorter time verses damage done by eating smaller portions or one piece of it in a longer time. To me, they are the same, or the difference is small.

This morning a neighbor gifted me back a bag of avocados in my original bowl. I used the bowl to hold a few Blenheim apricots from the last local orchard last week as a gift for her. I ate a whole bunch of them myself. I thanked her, said that I would not be able to eat any since they are just not a part of my eating plan, and asked her to bring them home. She had no problem with doing that.

[Mom+Me]

Hi

Have a chat with him. Start with "I know that your health is your own business but since I care about you I'm going to stick my nose in it and say something. You can do whatever you please once I have my say. I know you look healthy on the outside, but skinny David Letterman ended up with a quadruple bypass. I would like you to get a physical. Everyone should get a physical every year whether they are healthy or not. You haven't had one in years. It's in your best interest to find out what is happening inside your own body. "

I sometimes think that some men don't want to go to the doctors office due to the prostate exam. A man can always refuse this part of the physical exam if that is the reason they are not getting physicals. It's better to have a physical without a prostate exam than never getting a physical at all.


Men need to start telling other men that they need to get physical exams.

Thank you for replying, Dougalling!

I think he's concerned about finding out his #'s may be bad and then he'll be in the system. Kind of like an ostrich putting his head in the sand. He also hates needles and any pain. More than once I have offered to take his b/p and he even refuses that. And it's not that he has religious beliefs against medical care. I think it's fear and I think the fact that some of our relatives have had very bad experiences with the medical system doesn't help. Last year I even posed the question about at-home cholesterol testing. He was half the reason I asked since he doesn't want to go to a doctor.

It would be great for him to get his blood tested, and this whole pandemic hasn't helped in trying to get him to get it tested. I do agree with Dr. McDougall here about annual exams, as long add one is following The McDougall Plan: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl ... ysical.htm

Unfortunately I can't talk with him man to man because I am female. Maybe showing him some health videos again would help him....

[Mom+Me]

If you go with the 5% rule, then he has about 100 calories of wiggle room on a daily basis. If a person eats 2000 cal/day x 7 days, for a total of 14,000 calories, 5% is 700 cals, or one slice of pie. How he chooses to eat it is irrelevant.

Have you read Jeff’s post about cheating? It speaks to this very quandary. Eating a little McDougall but mostly just a SAD vegetarian is where he is right now. We all have our food journeys and I was on that path for a long time. Hopefully they will see you example and be motivated to make changes. Gifted food has been hardest for me to avoid, too.

Thank you, Lyndzie!

Yes, I know--just because people know about something (head knowledge) and maybe they have even made some motions in the right direction does not, in this case, make them a McDougaller. And then when people don't have the results they desire, all too often their WOE is blamed. But they have to actually do it--be all in. In his case, as I mentioned, outwardly he looks truly healthy and he feels great--a blessing and a curse. Maybe if the fat from the pie or chips bothered his digestive track that would get his attention.


Yes, I read the fairly recent thread about cheating that kind of got derailed and then f1jim brought it back to his original intent--I think that's the one you meant. Also there's the thread talking about the man from "Brand New Vegan" and his stroke.

I can empathize with my relative because I've been there, too. And he does sometimes go days that are 100% on plan! I just hope that he tightens the reins more before something bad may happen to him. It seems he used to be more compliant. I think complacency has set in...and the pandemic hasn't helped where people are enjoying comfort "foods".

The 5% rule sounds good. Still wonder if that 5% deviation can do major harm overtime, though. If not cardiovascularly, then risk for cancer?

[Lyndzie]

Here’s Jeff’s article on The 5%.

[Mom+Me]

It is a questions of damage done by eating bigger portions or all of a SAD pie in a shorter time verses damage done by eating smaller portions or one piece of it in a longer time. To me, they are the same, or the difference is small.

This morning a neighbor gifted me back a bag of avocados in my original bowl. I used the bowl to hold a few Blenheim apricots from the last local orchard last week as a gift for her. I ate a whole bunch of them myself. I thanked her, said that I would not be able to eat any since they are just not a part of my eating plan, and asked her to bring them home. She had no problem with doing that.

Thank you for replying and your perspective! I think you're right: his continuing to include these items--in large portions consumed quickly ("one and done") or dragged out in smaller portions--is all bad. I was just hoping to know if one did less damage than the other knowing all along that both are "evil".

That's why I think 100% compliance is best 100% of the time!! And if one were to have anything off-plan, it would have to be extremely controlled: miniscule and done very, very infrequently like maybe 1 small slice of pie per year and any other off-plan "foods" in similar fashion to equal a very small percentage of what one consumes in an entire year. Again, none would be best!!

Mmm...those apricots sound delicious! It was very sweet of you (pun intended ) to share with your neighbor. Congratulations on sticking with your convictions and not taking the avocados!

Unfortunately, until my loved one has similar convictions, I fear he will continue to see the healthy eating that he does do as "good enough", and the pie and such as "treats", so he'll continue to accept any. Plus he probably feels obligated when friends and co-workers share or "gift" him items.

[Mom+Me]

Here’s Jeff’s article on The 5%.

Thank you, Lyndzie! This is awesome!! No, I never saw that before. I agree with the person who said that that post from Jeff should be a sticky or something--posted where it's easy to find.

Did you wonder, too, what has happened to the people who participated in that and other older threads...still McDougalling, enjoying great health, etc.?!

Thank you again!