Supplements for Depression?

[debknott]

As only one person who has spent nearly forty years fighting depression, making my experiences anecdotal, I found that SAM-e was far more helpful than any other vitamin or herbal remedy.

But, also as only one person fighting depression for nearly forty years, I always found other depressed people's anecdotal evidence extremely helpful.

For those willing to go the drug route, there is more (though not enough) scientific evidence. But for those who want to try methods that are either nutritional supplements or herbal remedies, anecdotal evidence is useful and helpful.

Get off the backs of those fighting a hard battle.

[bunsofaluminum]

As only one person who has spent nearly forty years fighting depression, making my experiences anecdotal, I found that SAM-e was far more helpful than any other vitamin or herbal remedy.

But, also as only one person fighting depression for nearly forty years, I always found other depressed people's anecdotal evidence extremely helpful.

For those willing to go the drug route, there is more (though not enough) scientific evidence. But for those who want to try methods that are either nutritional supplements or herbal remedies, anecdotal evidence is useful and helpful.

Get off the backs of those fighting a hard battle.

I found SAM-e to be more helpful than the prescribed anti-depressants Zoloft or Effexor, both of which I took in the late 90's. It livened my mind and gave me energy without disrupting my emotions the way the anti-d's did. SAM-e also acted MUCH more quickly than the two weeks it took for the anti-d's to take effect. It's a bit pricey, so I'm glad that eating this way helps as much, and I think anyone taking neurochemical therapy for depression should DEFINITELY adjust their diet. After all, our bodies manufacture serotonin from carbohydrates, eh?

[bunsofaluminum]

The experiment of one could be the supplement...or it could be the placebo effect. Or some other effect.

I like what Dr. McDougall used to say about getting up early in the morning to help cure depression. Seems so counter-intuitive as we are told that as a society we need to get more sleep, but I've never seen a depressed person that gets up at 5 am to work out at the gym. I've seen plenty of depressed people who sleep until 10 or 12.

THIS!!! oy! There is something so absolutely uplifting and energizing about the early morning hours, and getting a move on first thing. Makes your whole entire body feel good.

[patty]

I remember hearing Dr. McDougall saying he had felt a cold coming on, and took Vitamin C. He was saying even though he knew vitamins weren't effective as say the whole plant a orange, he wasn't feeling that well and was willing to hope. What comes to mind is with depression is Robin Williams who suffered from Parkinson's. My daughter was sharing she was having trouble in helping her father in-law who had Parkinson's, because he started hitting on her. I explained it was his medication, and suggested to tell her husband to question the doctor for not explaining what the side effects of the medication were. Her father in-law in his right mind was the sweetest kindest person.

I am not familiar with SAMe, but it gives hope, maybe like the Vitamin C. Sometimes we just have to do something to get to the next place. Bottom line we are the Placebo, in a Non-Placebo world. I feel the article threw the baby out of the bathwater, because the solution was not there, a WFPBNO lifestyle was not offered. Why, most likely no sponsors. Sure WFPBNO isn't a cure all, It is like peeling a onion, there are many layers. And it is the core. But as Dr. McDougall sharing his anger of the solution being right in front of us with his mentor, who said it is "the I didn't think of It". Depression is our fear of our absence. It is a identity issue as we are more then the sum of all the parts. We are not only who we think we are also the other.

I find essential oil is working with a Client with AL. She has developed a habit of picking the skin of her hand . I made her a fabric bracelet that a few drops of lavender can be placed. I still placed 2 small band aids on the area. And also made her some scrunches to wear as bracelets. It is not uncommon for AL to fidget. Dr. McDougall shares doctors are happy when their patient passes, on the bedside table it is covered with pill bottles. It was criminal for my mother's doctor to prescribe Valium, but forgiveness is the greatest weapon there is. Her like might have been less caustic is SAMe had been prescribed.

Aloha, patty... don't forget the telomeres:)

[abit]

[f00die]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30835307
theres a link to the study itself
and the correlation vs causation argument:
JeffN has a thread
that might help in understanding
what constitutes credible evidence

[JeffN]

Evolution of Well-Being and Happiness After Increases in Consumption of Fruit and Vegetables. AJPH August 2016, Vol 106, No. 8
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics ... proofs.pdf

Objectives. To explore whether improvements in psychological well-being occur after increases in fruit and vegetable consumption.

Methods. We examined longitudinal food diaries of 12 385 randomly sampled Aus- tralian adults over 2007, 2009, and 2013 in the Household, Income, and Labour Dynamics in Australia Survey. We adjusted effects on incident changes in happiness and life sat- isfaction for people’s changing incomes and personal circumstances.

Results. Increased fruit and vegetable consumption was predictive of increased happiness, life satisfaction, and well-being. They were up to 0.24 life-satisfaction points (for an increase of 8 portions a day), which is equal in size to the psychological gain of moving from unemployment to employment. Improvements occurred within 24 months.

Conclusions. People’s motivation to eat healthy food is weakened by the fact that physical health benefits accrue decades later, but well-being improvements from in- creased consumption of fruit and vegetables are closer to immediate.
Policy implications. Citizens could be shown evidence that “happiness” gains from healthy eating can occur quickly and many years before enhanced physical health. (Am J Public Health. 2016;106:1504–1510. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2016.303260)



Let them eat fruit! The effect of fruit and vegetable consumption on psychological well-being in young adults: A randomized controlled trial. PLoS ONE 12(2): e0171206. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0171206
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0171206

Abstract

This study tested the psychological benefits of a 14-day preregistered clinical intervention to increase fruit and vegetable (FV) consumption in 171 low-FV-consuming young adults (67% female, aged 18–25). Participants were randomly assigned into a diet-as-usual control condition, an ecological momentary intervention (EMI) condition involving text message reminders to increase their FV consumption plus a voucher to purchase FV, or a fruit and vegetable intervention (FVI) condition in which participants were given two additional daily servings of fresh FV to consume on top of their normal diet. Self-report outcome measures were depressive symptoms and anxiety measured pre- and post-intervention, and daily negative and positive mood, vitality, flourishing, and flourishing behaviors (curiosity, creativity, motivation) assessed nightly using a smartphone survey. Vitamin C and carotenoids were measured from blood samples pre- and post-intervention, and psychological expectancies about the benefits of FV were measured post-intervention to test as mediators of psychological change. Only participants in the FVI condition showed improvements to their psychological well-being with increases in vitality, flourishing, and motivation across the 14-days relative to the other groups. No changes were found for depressive symptoms, anxiety, or mood. Intervention benefits were not mediated by vitamin C, carotenoids, or psychological expectancies. We conclude that providing young adults with high-quality FV, rather than reminding them to eat more FV (with a voucher to purchase FV), resulted in significant short-term improvements to their psychological well-being. These results provide initial proof-of-concept that giving young adults fresh fruit and vegetables to eat can have psychological benefits even over a brief period of time.



A randomised controlled trial of dietary improvement for adults with major depression (the ‘SMILES’ trial)
BMC Medicine201715:23. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-017-0791-y
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/a ... 017-0791-y

Abstract
Background

The possible therapeutic impact of dietary changes on existing mental illness is largely unknown. Using a randomised controlled trial design, we aimed to investigate the efficacy of a dietary improvement program for the treatment of major depressive episodes.

Methods

‘SMILES’ was a 12-week, parallel-group, single blind, randomised controlled trial of an adjunctive dietary intervention in the treatment of moderate to severe depression. The intervention consisted of seven individual nutritional consulting sessions delivered by a clinical dietician. The control condition comprised a social support protocol to the same visit schedule and length. Depression symptomatology was the primary endpoint, assessed using the Montgomery–Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS) at 12 weeks. Secondary outcomes included remission and change of symptoms, mood and anxiety. Analyses utilised a likelihood-based mixed-effects model repeated measures (MMRM) approach. The robustness of estimates was investigated through sensitivity analyses.

Results

We assessed 166 individuals for eligibility, of whom 67 were enrolled (diet intervention, n = 33; control, n = 34). Of these, 55 were utilising some form of therapy: 21 were using psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy combined; 9 were using exclusively psychotherapy; and 25 were using only pharmacotherapy. There were 31 in the diet support group and 25 in the social support control group who had complete data at 12 weeks. The dietary support group demonstrated significantly greater improvement between baseline and 12 weeks on the MADRS than the social support control group, t(60.7) = 4.38, p < 0.001, Cohen’s d = –1.16. Remission, defined as a MADRS score <10, was achieved for 32.3% (n = 10) and 8.0% (n = 2) of the intervention and control groups, respectively (χ 2 (1) = 4.84, p = 0.028); number needed to treat (NNT) based on remission scores was 4.1 (95% CI of NNT 2.3–27.. A sensitivity analysis, testing departures from the missing at random (MAR) assumption for dropouts, indicated that the impact of the intervention was robust to violations of MAR assumptions.

Conclusions

These results indicate that dietary improvement may provide an efficacious and accessible treatment strategy for the management of this highly prevalent mental disorder, the benefits of which could extend to the management of common co-morbidities.

In Health
Jeff

[Skip]

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... epression/

[PJK]

Jeff, thanks for the interesting study results. However, they don't know whether the fruit & veg actually created a better mood, or if the subjects simply felt better as a result of the act of eating healthier.

It's a subtle but important difference. If I have a problem and believe there is no solution, that's depressing. If, however, I take action, then I may feel hope, and my depression lifts. (This is assuming the depression is based on a situation rather than a physiological condition -- still a topic of debate.)

In other words:

Did the people who ate healthier felt better about themselves because they knew they were taking a positive step?

Or did they feel better because of some unknown chemical reaction that resulted from their eating more fruit and veg?

The answer to this question could be important. But this study doesn't answer it.

[f00die]

...

It's a subtle but important difference. If I have a problem and believe there is no solution, that's depressing. If, however, I take action, then I may feel hope, and my depression lifts. (This is assuming the depression is based on a situation rather than a physiological condition -- still a topic of debate.)

heres a link to an article that might clarify what "depression" is and isnt
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/314698.php

[kendoll]

About the article referred to in the subject, as another pointed out, it claims people who were not thought to be depressed, were still not thought to be depressed, whether or not they took supplements... I guess they are saying they had a weird theory and were unable to demonstrate proof for their weird theory.

About various comments, I rarely encounter anyone who can grasp the concept of clinical depression, unless they experience it. Getting up early to cure depression, is like saying to cure poverty discover that you have a million dollars in your pocket. It's true, people who discover a million dollars in their pocket tend not to be poor. So, there's the cure to poverty for you. All the other poor people are just lazy.

Eating well and exercising are signs that you are probably not experiencing clinical depression. Saying that a cure to depression is to first not be depressed, is not very helpful.

There is some similarity between people's misunderstanding of depression and misunderstanding of other health problems which are tied to social stigma.

Often, people ask why addicts continue to behave as they do, when it doesn't make sense. "Just say no", said Nancy Reagan. It's because addiction is the phenomenon in which people can not "just say no". If you could, it would mean they were not addicted. So, once again, saying the cure to addiction is to not have been addicted, is not very helpful.

This misunderstanding happens far less when it is a health problem, unrelated to a social stigma. People rarely say people with the flu should just will themselves not to have the flu and if they don't, it means they are lazy and don't want to heal.

Applying this to diet and exercise, it is important to recognize that a significant portion of people who seek a change in diet and exercise, do so because they have a health problem. Prescribing dietary changes based on, first not having the side effects of a health problem that leads people to need a change in diet, is not very helpful.

Most of what I have read of McDougall approaches to diet has recognized that people seeking change are starting from somewhere else than where they want to arrive at, which is a very important idea. But, I still encounter statements based on the idea that someone can snap their fingers and suddenly have the eating and exercise habits of someone who has no need for the change or the habit one hope to arrive at as an effect of the diet to change they are trying to make, in the first place.

[f00die]

the original study in the OP
was trying to see if taking supplements
would prevent depression.
so they got a group of ppl who were not depressed
one group got supplements
the other group did not
then after some time,
they checked to see if there were differences
in who got depressed
between the groups
they found no difference
leading them to conclude that supplements
do nothing to prevent depression.

[forgood]

I read a book on preventive/alternative medicine a long time ago, written maybe in the 50's or 60's, where a doctor fasted some mental patients and then feed them a plant based diet of fruits and vegetables and got good results (didn't mention supplements). Although the schizophrenics greatly improved the severe mental illness didn't go away 100%, but was a whole lot better and was manageable. The problem was when the patients were released and went back home, the went back to their families old eating habits and lost the benefits.
I wish I wrote down the name of the book, it was just a few pages in the book that mentioned this. It was at the library in the City College of New York in NYC. Wish I could go back there and find it, but I live on the West Coast.
This got my interested in holistic diets a long time ago, because I have schizophrenia with major depression, and my whole family either has schizophrenia or depression.
I'm on medications, they help but it's hard to get off of and see if I can manage my mental illness with diet etc. I've been on medications so long, think my brain is so used to them, even if I taper slowly, I get out of whack.

[patty]

I read a book on preventive/alternative medicine a long time ago, written maybe in the 50's or 60's, where a doctor fasted some mental patients and then feed them a plant based diet of fruits and vegetables and got good results (didn't mention supplements). Although the schizophrenics greatly improved the severe mental illness didn't go away 100%, but was a whole lot better and was manageable. The problem was when the patients were released and went back home, the went back to their families old eating habits and lost the benefits.
I wish I wrote down the name of the book, it was just a few pages in the book that mentioned this. It was at the library in the City College of New York in NYC. Wish I could go back there and find it, but I live on the West Coast.
This got my interested in holistic diets a long time ago, because I have schizophrenia with major depression, and my whole family either has schizophrenia or depression.
I'm on medications, they help but it's hard to get off of and see if I can manage my mental illness with diet etc. I've been on medications so long, think my brain is so used to them, even if I taper slowly, I get out of whack.

It is insanity to think what we put into our bodies doesn't have a effect on our body, mind and social health. The body/mind heals with the right foods and environment. Families aren't born under one roof. You are in the right place. This is a WE CAN program.

Aloha, patty

[human vegetable]

What about saffron as a natural mood booster?

Dr. Greger likes it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEwQlqFPbAU

The website examine.com references 9 studies for its antidepressant effects: https://examine.com/supplements/saffron/

I used it over the last two winters to help me over the dark months, and it seemed to help. Can be purchased as ground powder, and considering the low dosage it is very economical. But it is easy to overdose, at least initially precision scales are needed to get the dosage right. Also smells and tastes good, either as spice or as sweet tea.