Are you SOS free?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Are you SOS free?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:58 pm

Yes, I have eliminated all SOS
13
19%
No, I have eliminated O, but not salt and sugar
36
54%
No, I have eliminated salt, but not oil and sugar
0
No votes
No, I have eliminated sugar, but not oil and salt
1
1%
No, I have eliminated 2 out of 3 SOS components
17
25%
 
Total votes : 67

Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby roundcoconut » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 pm

I’ve always considered it a perfectly acceptable subset of the McDougall plan, to sprinkle salt or sugar on my food as rarely as I am able.

I have never bothered to consider myself in violation of Dr McDougall’s recommendations, by not keeping a sugar bowl in the house, or any type of salt shaker. That would seem strange to me, especially when everyone in the plant based community seems to agree that no additional sodium or additional sugar is needed in the diet for good health (beyond what naturally exists in whole foods).

It seems like the thing that people disagree on, is whether people can handle using a teaspoon here, and a teaspoon there, without spiraling out of control. If a person DOES spiral out of control, then it seems fine to just cut sugar out of your life as much as you can (or salt). (Just a behavioral hack — or a compliance hack — not a matter of being holier than thou!)
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Debbie » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Skip wrote:
Debbie wrote:
Skip wrote:
It comes from True North docs and some others who advocate it.......
I'm not trying to make this diet harder for anyone by asking this question... I'm just curious


Hi. I don't think she meant you making anything more difficult. I think just the idea. There seems a large push lately to omit salt and sugar, and for some, it may be beneficial. But not for everyone and for others, it cam make it really hard. The McDougall plan just makes it all so easy. :)


The idea that one would totally give up on the McDougall way of eating because they tried being SOS free (not part of the McDougall plan) and found it difficult makes no sense to me. To me, it's taking the McDougall plan to the "next level" of health which is hard to achieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfzzvyWNcLU&t=0m37s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCrEAxRGJCw&t=2m11s


Hi. While I agree taking it to the next level, for some, just following the basics is already tough enough. Personally, as one who struggled for a few years, tweaking and changing the rules to make it harder, did not result in any health benefits. I feel that if people used salt and sugar as Dr. McDougall suggests, on the surface of foods, they see results (the same goes for most other guidelines). Over time many just use less and less and some stop altogether without any extra effort or worry. They just stop eating it without having "rules" for it. And if they do happen to eat something that contains a little sugar, they know it but because there aren't these rules attached, it causes them no major issues. We just tend to over think and over complicate things as a species. Just eat starches add some veggies and some fruit and if you want add a little salt or sugar....or don't. But, IMO, we have to stop over complicating with all these rules for foods. And no one said anything about anyone leaving or quitting this way of eating. Not sure what that part was about.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Skip » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:13 pm

Debbie wrote:Over time many just use less and less and some stop altogether without any extra effort or worry. They just stop eating it without having "rules" for it.


What if over time someone uses more and more sugar/salt? So much that they become hypertensive and/or overweight? A person like that might benefit from a lower SOS consumption (perhaps not SOS free, but lower). Maybe this doesn't occur much, I really don't know.

I'm not trying to change any rules or discourage anyone. I try to conform to the McDougall plan as best as I can. It's really a matter of trying to attain continuous improvement.

I find it interesting that 20-25% of the poll responders claim to be SOS free. Jeff N. brings up a good point that some people think that they are SOS free but really aren't because they don't account for the "hidden sources" in their food. Jeff deals with people who have gone through various programs and people have still had a hard time adapting. I would suspect that at least some of these people need to lower their SOS levels (not necessarily SOS free). It's a matter of trying to continuously improve.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby gracezw » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Different people are different. The more self motivated the person is, the better focus he has. When I watch SOS carefully, I can keep them low. When I am distracted, their amounts will increase as directed by the social norm.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Debbie » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:22 am

Skip wrote:
Debbie wrote:Over time many just use less and less and some stop altogether without any extra effort or worry. They just stop eating it without having "rules" for it.


What if over time someone uses more and more sugar/salt? So much that they become hypertensive and/or overweight? A person like that might benefit from a lower SOS consumption (perhaps not SOS free, but lower). Maybe this doesn't occur much, I really don't know.


Then they wouldn't really be eating McDougall then, would they? Dr. McDougall's recommendations are sprinkling a little on the surface of food. I'm not sure how that equates to using more and more over time so that they end up being overweight while still being within the guidelines.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Skip » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:51 am

Debbie wrote:Then they wouldn't really be eating McDougall then, would they? Dr. McDougall's recommendations are sprinkling a little on the surface of food. I'm not sure how that equates to using more and more over time so that they end up being overweight while still being within the guidelines.


I love dates, but they are expensive perhaps $5 to $8 per pound. So when cooking my oatmeal (steel cut oats), I might add 4 dates to a cup of oatmeal (good for about 3 servings for me) which certainly raises the caloric density of the oatmeal but I don't sprinkle any sugar on the oatmeal either. However, I typically eat a banana and an orange with the oatmeal. So I love me some sugar....

To save some money, I bought some brown sugar as a substitute for the dates. I might use a teaspoon or two while cooking the oatmeal (which is not recommended by the plan) and then sprinkle a little sugar on the surface of the oatmeal. I eat my oatmeal in layers so after I have consumed my first layer of oatmeal, I repeat by sprinkling more sugar on the next layer of oatmeal. I would estimate that I eat 3 layers of oatmeal so those little sprinkles can add up. Perhaps I am eating to much sugar and I might train my tastes to be sugar free when I eat oatmeal. I'm maintaining a healthy weight so I'm not that worried but perhaps I could even be healthier without any of the added sugar.

Yes, I agree that I go "off plan" but I'm sure a lot of people do. We are not all perfect McDougallers :D
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Debbie » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:31 pm

Skip wrote:
I love dates, but they are expensive perhaps $5 to $8 per pound. So when cooking my oatmeal (steel cut oats), I might add 4 dates to a cup of oatmeal (good for about 3 servings for me) which certainly raises the caloric density of the oatmeal but I don't sprinkle any sugar on the oatmeal either. However, I typically eat a banana and an orange with the oatmeal. So I love me some sugar....

To save some money, I bought some brown sugar as a substitute for the dates. I might use a teaspoon or two while cooking the oatmeal (which is not recommended by the plan) and then sprinkle a little sugar on the surface of the oatmeal. I eat my oatmeal in layers so after I have consumed my first layer of oatmeal, I repeat by sprinkling more sugar on the next layer of oatmeal. I would estimate that I eat 3 layers of oatmeal so those little sprinkles can add up. Perhaps I am eating to much sugar and I might train my tastes to be sugar free when I eat oatmeal. I'm maintaining a healthy weight so I'm not that worried but perhaps I could even be healthier without any of the added sugar.

Yes, I agree that I go "off plan" but I'm sure a lot of people do. We are not all perfect McDougallers :D


4 dates per cup of oatmeal seems like a lot to me. But 1 cup of oats is not a lot to have over 3 servings. My children eat nearly 1.5 cups for breakfast without batting an eye. I hope you're not lumping fruit with sugar, they are not the same.

Do not cook the oats with the brown or any other sugar. I found the best way to maximize brown sugar is....sprinkle finely over the top and let sit for several minutes. The brown sugar melts and as you take a spoonful (put the spoon in from the top and slice downward) the melted brown sugar coats more of the oats as you eat it.

And since no one is perfect, that last line is moot. ;)
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Skip » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:01 pm

Debbie wrote: But 1 cup of oats is not a lot to have over 3 servings.

I'm talking about 1 cup of dry steel cut oats. I generally add 2 to 3 cups of water (with the dates too) and cook in a pressure cooker so 1 cup of dry steel cut oats might make up 3 cups of cooked steel cut oats.

Debbie wrote:I hope you're not lumping fruit with sugar, they are not the same.

After taking dates and grinding them up in a vitamix, I do lump them up with sugar because I have ground up a lot of the fiber. Granted the dates have more nutritional value like a good source of potassium. However, it seems that the more you process the fruit by grinding it up, the more caloric density you have created which gets it closer to being like sugar. The same logic goes for eating raw fruit vs fruit ground up as a smoothie.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Skip » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:30 pm

JeffN wrote:
Many, if not most of the other TrueNorth docs do not promote it or follow it. Dr Lisle doesn't (just see his Continuum of Evil). Dr Klaper doesn't (just watch his video on Salt Sugar and Oil) where he uses my guidelines.

In Health
Jeff


I just watched Dr. Klaper's video on Salt Sugar and Oil (had to rent it from Vimeo). Near the end of the talk he says that you should consider going SOS free because it is to easy to use to much SOS and moderation is problematic.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby JeffN » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:57 pm

Skip wrote:After taking dates and grinding them up in a vitamix, I do lump them up with sugar because I have ground up a lot of the fiber. Granted the dates have more nutritional value like a good source of potassium. However, it seems that the more you process the fruit by grinding it up, the more caloric density you have created which gets it closer to being like sugar. The same logic goes for eating raw fruit vs fruit ground up as a smoothie.


Just as an FYI

If you just chop the dates yourself, or blend them in the vitamix, the calorie density is the same. The reason commercial date sugar has a higher calorie density then just chopping or grinding dates at home is because before the grind them, they completely dry out the dates (removing the water) which lowers calorie density. So, unless you are drying out the dates, the calorie density will be the same.

Same when making a smoothie. The calorie density of a blended apple or banana is the same as a whole apple or banana unless in the process you remove water (or add fat, or sugar, or flour, etc).

The reason it is easier to over consume a smoothie, or chopped/ground food, is because the process disrupts the fiber, which decreases its satiety. In addition, you don't have to chew it as much and chewing impacts satiety, the less chewing, the less satiety.

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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby patty » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:25 pm

Rawdad posted about frequent urination and I too can tell the difference when I don't eat anything that doesn't have salt. For a long time I thought something was wrong with my bladder. When I eat say something from Whole Foods or bread /Asian noodles I see a difference. I make a point of watching now when I don't have salt and include it. Also I include seaweed every so often. Sugar I am hopeless, though now I grind up oats, dates, nuts and carob and make cookie dough. I only eat in a eight hour window and that really helps put my food into perspective of 2 meals. My volume eating filtered into mindless, boredom and emotional eating. I have to admit I am probably sicker than most. Works for me to drop all authority. Jeff's basic bean burger, I make into loafs and they are a life saver because somehow I think I am eating meatloaf. And that is my protein as I would get from animal and animal products.

The whole thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55427&p=561699&hilit=rawdad#p561699


John McDougall wrote:I have held a similar concern about too low salt diets.

See my August 2008 newsletter: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/aug/salt.htm

John McDougall, MD


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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby daniel121 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:16 pm

I agree that oil and refined sugar are not necessary and are better to eliminate or eat very little of, but I completely disagree about salt. I think limiting salt is completely unnecessary for most and possibly even dangerous for some. I was completely salt free for about 4 or 5 months and eventually got to the point where I could not even drink water any more without feeling sick and started to feel nauseous and even vomited a few times for no apparent reason. Just having salt again completely cured this. I am very angry now when I hear that salt has to be eliminated or limited to 2/3 of a teaspoon (1500mg of sodium) or less per day. I think 1000-1500mg of sodium is the minimum that I need. Only a very small minority of people may need to limit salt who are salt sensitive.

Most non-human wild species that eat plant-based diets go out of their way to find direct salt sources. For example, the Elephants' Protection Fund reports that elephants travel long distances and work hard to obtain salt from salt licks:
"Pools of water enriched with minerals are especially sought-after, and elephants' trunks are highly sensitive in locating these. Plains grass does not provide all the trace elements the animals require, so elephant herds regularly visit sites where they have found salt-containing earth. They churn up the ground with their tusks, and put the dislodged pieces of soil into their mouths with their trunks. In some places, holes several feet deep can be hollowed out in this way. This is how elephants open up salt licks, and make vital minerals accessible to other animals." http://elephant.kulichki.net/elib5.html

Primates also seek out salt-rich foods and salt licks. Chimpanzees lick salty rocks to satisfy their need for sodium. Gorillas eat rotting wood to get sodium not present in their diets: http://www.livescience.com/4120-mystery ... -wood.html

It is highly questionable whether an unsalted plant-based diet provides adequate sodium for all individuals. Individuals vary in a range in their requirements for every nutrient. Some may do OK on a salt-free diet but probably most will not. I actually wonder if salt restriction is one of the reasons some people don't succeed on a plant-based diet. Meat, dairy, and eggs are rich in sodium so someone who tries a salt-free plant based diet may not do well and feel better when s/he adds salt-rich animal products back.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Skip » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:55 pm

daniel121 wrote:I agree that oil and refined sugar are not necessary and are better to eliminate or eat very little of, but I completely disagree about salt. I think limiting salt is completely unnecessary for most and possibly even dangerous for some.


Most people don't eat a plant based whole foods diet and they eat way to much salt in their processed food.

daniel121 wrote: I think 1000-1500mg of sodium is the minimum that I need.


You don't have to add salt to WFPB diet to meet this minimum.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby daniel121 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:46 pm

It's very difficult to get more than 1 gram of sodium without salt. 500mg is probably the highest you can get. I probably need anywhere from 1-4 grams of sodium a day. I probably need more chloride also. Chloride by itself is also an essential mineral like sodium. I don't know how much chloride I get without salt, but it's probably not enough.
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Re: Are you SOS free?

Postby Lyndzie » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 am

I am grateful for this post - it comes with good timing, because with the holidays I was really falling to temptation, but Jeff’s reminder that being SOS-free isn’t necessary put this WOE back in a real approachable place for me. There are a lot more food options when salt and sugar are permitted. Sure, I make most of the food from scratch and just add salt on top at the table, but for some reason that whole idea of “not being good enough, so why try at all” is an issue for me. Doug Lisle’s lectures have been great, because I am one of those people who needs variety, and am constantly trying out new recipes.
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