Are you SOS free?

[bbq]

While oil should be considered an obvious offender, it's quite interesting to see why we should add our own sugar and salt sparingly instead of allowing someone else to go crazy with that:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/big-salt-getting-to-the-meat-of-the-matter/

Why is the salt industry so powerful? They have their own PR and lobbying firms to play tobacco industry-style tactics to downplay the dangers. But salt is so cheap. How much money are they really making? It’s not the salt mine barons; it’s the processed food industry. Just like the sugar industry could care less if we buy a two-pound bag at the store, it’s the trillion-dollar processed food industry that uses the dirt-cheap added salt and sugar to sell us their junk. And, by hooking us on hyper-sweet and hyper-salty foods, our taste buds get so dampened down that natural foods taste like cardboard.

Dr. Kempner took care of some patients who could no longer afford to eat the tiniest amount of salt anymore because their kidneys were so irreparably damaged. Therefore, even the protein in rice would give them troubles and that's why adding tons of sugar would lower the percentage of calories from protein.

Lustig et al. created a "sensational phobia" of some sort and all of a sudden sugar seemed to have become THE public enemy. However, Jeff talked about a study below and sugar (30 tsps a day) didn't really seem to be problem at all as long as they're able to restrict their caloric intake to roughly 1,100 kcal:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=57026

And then we've got urban legend like sugar feeds cancer and sugar makes you fat etc.

[patty]

For myself it is the combination of SOS that I stay away from. And of course staying away from animals and animal products is a given. I feel it is important to focus on what creates the satiety in your lifestyle no matter how it is done. Hacks invited. It is to be open minded and teachable. We reside in the best labs there are. The body is our best ally. It does lie. I feel “Dr McDougall’s Digestion Time-Up” is his best book. We are all living life on life’s terms. Try for what you want and take what you get. We are all searching for perfection while we obtain it today in it's imperfection; one day at a time that follows the next. There is a recipe of gratitude for life for everyone and it is being starch centered. And for some of us finding that lesson is through trail and error only to fall back to what is simple while complex. Life is delightful uncertainty.

Aloha, patty

[JeffN]

Skip wrote:
To me, it's taking the McDougall plan to the "next level" of health which is hard to achieve.


This is a misconception and unfortunately, one that is not true and more often then not, backfires and does much more harm then good. While we will always adapt/adjust the program to the individual, somehow thinking that the WFPB low SOS diet is not enough, or that there is a higher level, is incorrect.

Thanks for that correction that didn't "sink in" when we discussed this previously.

A few things to consider...

First and most important, as with the "hacks" to the MWL program, "We are here because we are an evidence & science based program." Saying something worked, is really meaningless without the supporting evidence. And, just because it may appear to work for an individual (or two) for either personal or medical reasons, doesn't mean it applies to everyone, or has any solid scientific basis.

If we begin to accept these anecdotal stories without the supporting evidence, and treat them as if they are as solid in value as the good evidence we have, then we lower the standard of evidence on which these program are based and to the general public, we become quacks. This is/was the problem with, What The Health, that I pointed out. If we have such good evidence for what we do, why make things up, or exaggerate things and/or promote and make claims for things that have no evidence.

If something does work for someone, then there is a process (as we did with the WFPB low SOS program) to go about turning that story into evidence and that evidence into good evidence. The first process is that it has to be maintained and complied with over time, which would be info that would be needed including (but not limited to.....) how long have you been SOS free, why did you do it, how adherent are you, do you ever eat out, do you ever eat packaged foods, do you prepare all your foods, etc etc?

Second, by accepting these items for more then they are, we then make the rest of the programs, like Pritikin, McDougall, Esselstyn, CHIP, Barnard, etc etc, seem inferior when in actuality, they are the ones with the good evidence.

Kemper took care of very sick people with a specific health issue with a salt free diet. However, once they were able to recover, a 100% salt free diet was not required.

As an FYI, I counsel many patients who have been through TN, McDougall, Essy, Barnard, Ornish, Pritikin, etc. I am amazed at how many think they are on a low SOS (or even SOS free) diet but don't understand all the sources of hidden SOS. I just spoke with one this morning whose intake is way over the Tolerable Upper Limit and thought they were low SOS. I have another appointment today with a former TN patient who is also in a similar situation.

We are health professionals in a quest for good health, not pharisees seeking purity

In Health
Jeff

[colonyofcells]

I use some seaweeds and I would guess that all types of seaweed come with some salt.

[FitTrey]

Salt and sugar free is not part of the program but I have never seen added salt and sugar encouraged, as in, make sure you add some salt and sugar here and there. It has always been said it is your choice if you want to sprinkle a little salt on this or sugar on that. So if it is your choice to sprinkle, it therefore could also be your choice not to sprinkle. That means it is fine to go SOS free. I haven't seen SOS free to be discouraged before. A lot of us base our meals off of the recipes and guidelines in Jeff Novick's Fast Food programs where no sugar or salt is added to the recipes (at least that I can recall on the DVDs I have), with the possible exception of Shopping School which shows various products with acceptably low levels.

I wonder how many people aiming for SOS free actually have some added sugar and salt on occassion and how many of the people who think they are following the regular program's guidelines actually get more salt and sugar than is recommended.

As for me, I am oil free but do have some salt and sugar at times but most of my daily meals don't have added salt or sugar. So even though I generally aim for SOS free I probably end up just meeting the regular program's guidelines.

[forgood]

not using oil is easy, not much sugar use, but salt have hardest time not using but if I were to do a water fast at some point then try to eat SOS free it might work. right now just trying to use less salt.

[JeffN]

Salt and sugar free is not part of the program but I have never seen added salt and sugar encouraged,

Added salt & sugar, as a condiment, are actually an accepted part of the program and encouraged, much more assertively by Dr McDougall & the McDougalls then me, but encouraged by all as a condiment. Salt shakers and sugar is available at all the meals and in the snack room and the participants are encouraged to use them as a condiment.

Dr McDougall actually has expressed his concern in many lectures, videos, webinars and newsletters about diets that are very low in sodium and the fear of a using either/both for flavor.

The reason my cooking DVD doesn’t use sugar or salt is for the same reason we try to make many of the dishes at the program without adding salt and/or sugar to the recipe. This is because the majority of the added salt & sugar in the typical diet is added by the manufacturer in packaged and prepared products and the best way to keep intake of both to a reasonable & safe level is to avoid it as much as possible in packaged products and in prepared foods. Then, one can safely add it at the table without overdoing it.

You may also want to check out my label reading guidelines and my thread on salt where all of these points (and more) are explained in detail.

As an FYi, a recent communication went out to all the employees of the program acknowledging this so everyone is on the same page and to clarify that we are not an SOS free program...

Salt/Sugar - We are not a salt or sugar free program. We do recommend cooking without them whenever possible but we do encourage the use of salt &/or sugar by sprinkling it on the top of food at the table for flavor.

In Health
Jeff

[MINNIE]

I never use oil or sweeteners I actually stopped using sweeteners @ ten years ago, before I knew about the McDouall diet.

I don' t use any table salt but I do use a little soy sauce now and then

I don't worry about it though.

I don't see anything wrong with sweeteners for those who like them. To me oil is a poison that I will never willingly consume - yuck!!!

[Skip]

I never used to eat kale because it tasted to bitter for me. So I bought a dehydrator and started making kale chips. This made the kale less bitter and much more palatable. Then I started adding some salt and nutritional yeast to the kale and it became even more palatable. Lately, I have added some sugar in addition to the salt and nutritional yeast and it tastes even better so I eat even more of it. I suppose this is why adding salt/sugar is even encouraged because it makes some great foods more palatable.

Next step, I'm going to add some cinnamon to my kale chip concoction. I wonder how much nutritional value of kale is lost due to dehydrating it. I have heard some claim that that depends on the temperature used in the dehydrating process.

[FitTrey]

I seem to remember a video where Dr. McDougall said that if he told people they could have a small amount of nuts that what they hear is that nuts are ok and they eat too many (paraphrasing to the best of my memory). I wonder if the same concern exists with salt and sugar? It seems a lot of people just hear that salt and sugar are ok and then use them to taste while cooking their recipes, which could be quite a bit of salt and sugar.

Since we are getting a refresher on the guidelines I have to wonder about the limits on beans and fruit. It was mentioned previously about the published works of Kempner, CHIP, Pritikin, Ornish, Esselstyn, Barnard and so on who did not use an SOS free diet. But I don't think any of them had limits of fruit and beans so where did those recommendations come from?

[SonjaK]

When I am at home, I am oil and sugar free. Do not keep any in my apartment. I add salt to my foods sometimes. Not even every day, usually a few times a week if I'm feeling like it. I only eat out 3 or 4 times am month on average. These are the only times I may consume sugar or oil, though even then I don't always do so. I have gone for very long periods without either before, and now that my body is so used to such a minimally processed diet, any time I consume meals with high amounts of sugar or oil I can usually feel it physically almost immediately, and sometimes the next day as well. So consuming those foods becomes less and less tempting with time.

This is pretty much exactly where I am except I don't have any salt in my apartment either. Everything else is pretty much right on.

To add a little though: I am not a salt addict and I don't have high bp or other related health issues so I could use salt without issues, and therefore don't stress about it if it's in something I"m eating, but I don't need it and dislike salt foods.

Re. sugar - I am a sugar addict. If a little's good, a little more is better (or a lot). When I read the specifics from Jeff N. about what the best amount of sugar was was, I realized I either have none or way too much. I am not good at moderation with it. So it was better to cut it out entirely and adjust my taste buds to fruit as my dessert. (I included dates after reading everything on caloric density and Jeff's article on how dates can be just as bad if you're eating them like crazy or combined with nuts/coconut - and I was.) It was affecting how I feel and my ability to lose that last 10 pounds.

I'm still new to the sos-free (I added flour for the same addiction reasons). Contrary to what some have said about this limiting their life, I find it freeing. It has removed the debate. And I love this food. If I want fruit, the answer is always yes. And I crave veggies, potatoes, rice, etc. which is pretty great.

[Vegankit]

I follow Dr. McDougall's diet - no oil but sugar and salt added as a condiment. I strictly limit salt but I'm a little more generous with sugar especially when preparing food for non-McDougall's.

OTOH I have cut back on sweetness. I found eating sweet potatoes for breakfast was just too sweet, same with added sugar to oatmeal - so now I eat it with nothing. I prefer to get my sweetness from fruit rather than the sugar bowl. This wasn't a conscious plan but rather just what I felt like eating.

[BroccoliForever]

I do not eat SOS, but otherwise am on the McDougall diet. I am meticulous about it for a few reasons. I am terrible at limiting the "sprinkle" of sugar that Dr. McDougall allows. A little is just not enough, and I found myself increasingly using sugar to my own detriment. For me, it is simply much easier to completely eliminate it rather than battle my inability to dial it back. I don't add any processed sugar to anything, no table sugar, no maple syrup, no agave, no molasses, no (insert processed sugar name here). I read labels and if there's even a hint of sugar in it, I simply don't buy it (did you know many canned kidney beans have sugar in them?) I don't consume added salt (even being careful with canned items like canned, salted beans, or canned salted tomatoes) because I LOVE to eat food and I can very easily overeat--even on the McDougall diet. By eliminating added salt, I am now finally able to discern whether I am full in such a strangely more controlled way. I can't explain it. I think it's ridiculous that I don't have more self control. And I feel that there must be something wrong with me for my inability to do the McDougall diet exactly as intended and not create a new set of "special rules" to make it work for me. To be clear, I absolutely LOVE the McDougall diet and I have been meticulous about not including added free-oils to my diet. But despite this, I was always carrying around 10+ extra "vanity" pounds that I just could not shake. It was not until this spring when I eliminated SOS that I am finally at a very healthy weight and I am actually content with my weight. I realize it is not recommended by Dr. McDougall, but it is what has worked for me to attain the healthy weight I currently enjoy.

[Skip]

The following discussion with Dr. McDougall and Dr. Goldhamer relates to this topic and I found it interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3SSL30-kQk&t=17

The subject of SOS free is mentioned by Dr. Goldhamer at various points while Dr. McDougall puts more emphasis on being meat and dairy free. I found it interesting that right off the bat, Dr. McDougall states that for cases he has a hard time with, he sends them over to True North for help. That doesn't mean that McDougall endorses SOS free except maybe for certain patients. Or maybe the combination of fasting and SOS free is needed for certain extreme cases that have a hard time with the McDougall plan.

I would imagine that the McDougall plan works better for the majority of people who would not or could not attempt the True North plan. Both plans are aimed at the same goal which is to make people healthy which is fantastic and at there foundation are quite similar advocating a starch/plant based whole foods diet.

[Alaskagirl]

I have eliminated oil but still use very limited amounts of salt and sugar.