When did doctors go so wrong?!

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When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby petmomful » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:50 pm

Because I have been facing, and thinking about, some real abuse by doctors, I have been wondering when and how they went so terribly wrong. How did they go from the Hippocratic Oath, and, "Let food be thy medicine," to just handing out pills, with no worries about the long term effects of these drugs? When did they start thinking they were gods that we were supposed to just obey, and not question? When did they decide that they did not have to give us ALL the facts, and let US decide which course of action we would prefer to take? When did they decide that we were not even worth listening to, that we could not make decisions on our health, and what we had already been thru was not important, even tho we are PAYING them? Was it when natural healers or "witches" were being burned at the stake? Were religious convictions involved, thinking that witches were in cahoots with the devil? Was it when Big Pharma got too involved? How in the heck did things get so screwed up, that diet is not even asked about, by doctors? How did our society get so blase about their health? These are the things that keep me up at night right now.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby Spiral » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:28 am

petmomful wrote:Because I have been facing, and thinking about, some real abuse by doctors, I have been wondering when and how they went so terribly wrong. How did they go from the Hippocratic Oath, and, "Let food be thy medicine," to just handing out pills, with no worries about the long term effects of these drugs? When did they start thinking they were gods that we were supposed to just obey, and not question? When did they decide that they did not have to give us ALL the facts, and let US decide which course of action we would prefer to take? When did they decide that we were not even worth listening to, that we could not make decisions on our health, and what we had already been thru was not important, even tho we are PAYING them? Was it when natural healers or "witches" were being burned at the stake? Were religious convictions involved, thinking that witches were in cahoots with the devil? Was it when Big Pharma got too involved? How in the heck did things get so screwed up, that diet is not even asked about, by doctors? How did our society get so blase about their health? These are the things that keep me up at night right now.

You raise some great questions.

Regarding how our society has become so blasé about health,

I think people have been lulled into complacency because of our longer life expectancies throughout the 20th century. I think we have been led to believe that the miracles of medicine and modern life have given us great health. And there is a kernel of truth in this. Better sanitation has resulted in longer life expectancy. The fact that physicians are instructed to wash their hands prior to surgery was a big change in procedure. Vaccinations and antibiotics were important.

So, many people think that living the "American dream" includes eating all of the foods on offer in our supermarkets and restaurants (not to mention baseball parks and festivals). The idea of exercising restraint is hard to accept on many levels.

As for the physicians, I think it just comes down to the fact that this is what they have been trained to do. They spent lots of money to educate themselves to be a physician and almost none of that education includes nutrition education. (And it they did get nutrition education, it would probably result in physicians putting all their patients on low-carb diets.)

The drug companies might have done some great things. Perhaps they have helps lots of people who have taken their drugs. But they are a business. The researchers are highly paid. The people who invest in the drug companies (perhaps your 401(k) plan has some drug stocks in it) want to get a return on their investment.

The knowledge gap, real and apparent, is a problem. When most people walk into their doctors office, they assume that their doctors have all the answers and that they have none of them. This knowledge imbalance make exploitation a real possibility. Sort of like what happens when one is ignorant of car technology and tries to get his or her car fixed.

It's a big problem.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby judynew » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:40 am

Very interesting topic, particularly since most doctors probably go into medicine with the very best of intentions, wanting to make people well.

There have been lots of influences on the western medical system but one of the big ones was John D. Rockefeller. In the late 1800's, John D realized that there was money to be made from pharmaceuticals and, to make sure he made money, he started donating large sums to medical schools and dictating their courses of study. There would be no more homeopathic or natural remedies. Western medicine would focus on John D's medicines. Of course, he was not alone in this. There were other money grubbing "philanthropists" doing the same.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby petmomful » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:43 am

Very interesting responses, thank you! Now I have even more to think about! lol The Rockefeller thing makes sense. And I agree that people think it is the American dream to eat hot dogs, and whatever they want. After all, they are associated with baseball games and family picnics! I wonder if it even goes further back than that, to when natural cures were considered witchcraft.

I also wonder why so many doctors now don't SEE the way they have gone off course. Sure they did not get nutritional info in school. But these are intelligent, educated people. It would seem that more of them would catch on at some point that nutrition is important. They just don't seem to get it, or maybe just don't want to face it. Aren't they keeping up with studies, like Dr. McDougall does? Maybe they are so set in there ways with drugs. I also believe that many/most have the best intentions. So why are they not spreading the word? I guess it is too risky for their careers. And they have to do what other doctors are doing, or face malpractice. It just seems that throwing in some nutritional info to their patients should not be that hard. It is such a business now, no compassion, no empathy, no gentleness with a sick person. Just get 'em in, and get 'em out. As a veterinary technician, I saw much more empathy and caring in veterinarians than I see in human doctors.

This situation leaves people like us in a quandary. We want what is best for our health, but cannot trust many of the health professionals we are sent to. We often have to go to the ones our insurance will pay for. So we end up trying to make our own decisions, based on our research. This is kind of scary. You actually have to go against what a doctor/god is telling you to do, and hope you are right. (Thank goodness for the advice of Dr. McDougall and others like him.)

But people not like us are in a worse quandary. They listen to the doctor, no matter what, and think they are doing what is best. So they end up on tons of drugs, surgery, tests, etc, and are still sick their whole lives. They think it is just bad luck, or getting older. They might never know that a lot of what they went thru, and paid for, was preventable and unnecessary. This is a horrible thing to think about. When I look at what some of my friends as seniors are going thru, it is frightening. I have relatives and friends that are missing a breast, on tons of medications, overweight, having heart attacks, strokes, dementia, etc. I also have young people in my family who drink, smoke, and live on soda and junk food and meat and milk. Very scary. I am afraid that if we do not turn this around soon, the human race is doomed!! Maybe some aliens can drop in and tell us what we are all doing wrong. They should be more advanced than us. lol (Sorry, my husband binged on "Ancient Aliens" last night.}

Everyone knows the adage, "You are what you eat." But nobody seems to understand it or believe it, or take it seriously, especially doctors.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby Spiral » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:25 am

petmomful wrote:But people not like us are in a worse quandary. They listen to the doctor, no matter what, and think they are doing what is best. So they end up on tons of drugs, surgery, tests, etc, and are still sick their whole lives. They think it is just bad luck, or getting older. They might never know that a lot of what they went thru, and paid for, was preventable and unnecessary. This is a horrible thing to think about. When I look at what some of my friends as seniors are going thru, it is frightening. I have relatives and friends that are missing a breast, on tons of medications, overweight, having heart attacks, strokes, dementia, etc.

I have recently become more familiar with Vegan dietician Virginia Messina, who is an animal rights activist. I think her attitude towards the whole foods plant based diet (ala Esselstyn and McDougall) is illuminating, even though animal rights activists are a tiny minority of the population.

Her criticism of McDougall diets and Esselstyn diets, diets that not only exclude animal based foods but also vegetable oils and vegan junk food, is essentially this:
Why add additional restrictions? There's no evidence that eliminating fat (oil) will result in better health. Doing so could result in worse health.


So, there are two arguments here, one is a question of where the science stands on vegan junk food versus whole plant foods and another is a variant on the standard, "We all die eventually. Why not enjoy the sugary, fatty, salty foods?" argument we here so often.

Messina's focus is not on human health, yet she is a registered dietician. Many physicians do not see themselves in "the health business" either. They seem themselves a bit like the guy who changes the oil in your car. They have learned a marketable skill and they do the job they were trained to do. They aren't like Dr. McDougall. They aren't going to spend time going through all of the nutritional research, trying to figure out what foods are healthy and what foods aren't.

Virginia Messina, the Vegan RD, has written in response to the "What the Health" documentary that the scientific evidence is contradictory and complex. So, since it really can't be known as to what constitutes a healthy diet, she just wants her vegan clients to be comfortable with the foods they are eating. If they want ice cream, let it be soy or coconut ice cream.

One of my aunts has two MDs, one from Yale and one from Duke. But she's not really like Dr. McDougall. She doesn't spend her time on Pub Med trying to figure out what's healthy and what isn't. She has other hobbies and interests. Sure, she's a lacto-ovo-vegetarian. She eats plenty of yogurt and fruit. She avoids processed food. (But isn't yogurt sort of a processed food? :? )

So, there it is. It is the rare person who really digs in and tries to learn the truth. In some sense, our government (or part of our government) has been trying to tell Americans to eat healthier for decades. And Americans aren't listening.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby patty » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:28 am

judynew wrote:Very interesting topic, particularly since most doctors probably go into medicine with the very best of intentions, wanting to make people well.

There have been lots of influences on the western medical system but one of the big ones was John D. Rockefeller. In the late 1800's, John D realized that there was money to be made from pharmaceuticals and, to make sure he made money, he started donating large sums to medical schools and dictating their courses of study. There would be no more homeopathic or natural remedies. Western medicine would focus on John D's medicines. Of course, he was not alone in this. There were other money grubbing "philanthropists" doing the same.


i had a friend who was Mormon. I learned a lot about the Mormon church in our history. There seemed to be a real conflict in faith healing and doctors/pharmaceutical. And that is where the pharmaceutical companies started giving money to schools. In essence Bruce Lipton a cell biologist shares the black coats changed to white coats where they teach the no placebo. "The Patient Will See You Now", by Dr. Eric Topol is a excellent read how today with a smart phone anyone can access information about their health care. He feels the communication between patient and doctor will change as the supplier and consumer are the informed patient:)

Aloha, patty
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby Willijan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:33 pm

judynew wrote:Very interesting topic, particularly since most doctors probably go into medicine with the very best of intentions, wanting to make people well.

There have been lots of influences on the western medical system but one of the big ones was John D. Rockefeller. In the late 1800's, John D realized that there was money to be made from pharmaceuticals and, to make sure he made money, he started donating large sums to medical schools and dictating their courses of study. There would be no more homeopathic or natural remedies. Western medicine would focus on John D's medicines. Of course, he was not alone in this. There were other money grubbing "philanthropists" doing the same.


This is a very interesting piece of information to me.

I was reading Spiral's post, and I thought it was excellent, but I was also wondering how the drug companies became so influential in medical schools. You have begun an answer to that.

Also, I think a lot of doctors are really arrogant. They think they own the patient. They are not humane. They are more interested in getting total respect and making money than recognizing the patient's needs. I have experienced this more with specialists than primary care doctors. And of course not all specialists are like that. My primary care doctor is very kind and tries to be helpful in explaining things. But the problem is, he still assumes he is right, doesn't know when he is wrong.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby patty » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:19 pm

Spiral wrote:I have recently become more familiar with Vegan dietician Virginia Messina, who is an animal rights activist. I think her attitude towards the whole foods plant based diet (ala Esselstyn and McDougall) is illuminating, even though animal rights activists are a tiny minority of the population.

Her criticism of McDougall diets and Esselstyn diets, diets that not only exclude animal based foods but also vegetable oils and vegan junk food, is essentially this:
Why add additional restrictions? There's no evidence that eliminating fat (oil) will result in better health. Doing so could result in worse health.


So, there are two arguments here, one is a question of where the science stands on vegan junk food versus whole plant foods and another is a variant on the standard, "We all die eventually. Why not enjoy the sugary, fatty, salty foods?" argument we here so often.


Messina should watch Jeff Novick's two dvds on fat and oil and his shopping video. In essence he explains all plants have fat and oil. Dr. Campbell says the key to eat fat and oil is to eat it intact with in the whole plant. So if you desire coconut oil, eat the meat of the coconut. It doesn't take a rocket science to witness what happens to a sink when washing dishes/pans with fat or oil. How are our arteries any different? "We all die eventually." is a cop out. Working food addiction is a daily, meal to meal process. Genetics is the gun, lifestyle is the trigger. When you algin with nature you become aligned. Animals a don't have malice.

I love the story of the two photographers on a safari in Africa, who wake up in the middle of the night hearing noises outside of their tent. One immediately starts to put on and lace up his shoes. The other photographer says "How is that going to help you?" The response is, "If I can out run you it will."

Aloha, patty
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby petmomful » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:16 pm

All very interesting observations here! I have a lot more to think about and ponder. I guess I was naive thinking that most doctors became doctors because they really wanted to help people. I wonder how Dr. McDougall has time to keep up with all the studies and everything. Patty, the Mormon thing is interesting. Mormon's don't like doctors do they? Scientologists don't like them either, especially, psychiatrists! I think there has to be a religious involvement, because I have been reading a lot about different religions and their power over just about everything!

Speaking of specialists, the doctors that threw me over the edge were pain management doctors. Most of their offices felt like businesses, not like caring people. I was pushed, prodded, jerked, not even looked in the eye, or listened to. My questions were not answered, and my feelings and thoughts disregarded. Once, when made very ill by being put on 2 narcotics at once, and therefore throwing up all pain medicine, I was told that if I went to the ER, which I was considering, I would be a felon. Willijan, I agree with you completely. They think they own you and you are just supposed to obey them. How dare you question a doctor! I really was in for a rude awakening after the last pain doctor I had. I mean, this guy was such an incredible, rude jerk, who had no compassion or empathy. When I expressed my frustration at the staff messing up my FIRST appointment, he said I had an anger problem, and needed a shrink. All he had to say was, I am sorry that happened and we will try to do better next time. Then I found out I was now a "doctor shopper." I did not even know what that was! I do now! Well, I am here to tell you, I won't be shopping for more doctors anytime soon. In fact, I am really going to stay away as long as I can! My regular GP is a very nice guy, but he is basically worthless, because all he does is send me to specialists. I can do that myself. He is also an obese man, so I don't really feel like he is practicing what he preaches.

I have also observed that once people get heavily into the "medical system," it seems to become part of their identity. I once spoke to a gentleman at a basketball game who was in a wheelchair. He told me about all his surgeries, why he could not walk, or move his arm, on and on, like he was proud of it! It was sort of an attention getting device, part of his daily life, part of his routine to go to the doctor and have more and more done to him. Does that make sense? I also have a family member who seems to be like that. She is always sick, and her husband and child are always sick. I mean always. In fact, she called today and cancelled something because they have strep again. They were on a plane, she says, so they caught something. They eat out ALL the time, more than they eat at home. Her child has several illnesses that seem strange to me, is on meds, and they have just used this as an excuse to always be ill. The daughter gets ill at school, and brings all the germs home. When we talk, I suggest she try to boost her immune system, or try to give up milk for 30 days and see if they feel better, but no, she says they are just the kind of people that get sick often and have to live with it. Not even willing to try. I understand this a little because when I was involved in pain management, it took over my life. You go to the doctor, he does stuff that hurts you, you go home and sit and recover, then it is time to go to the doctor again and be hurt again. Thank heavens I do not have to do that anymore!! But I never stopped looking for something better; I never stopped trying. I knew there had to be something better. I guess I do not understand why someone would be willing to settle for this, when they are perfectly capable of doing a little research, or trying new things. It is a weird phenomena.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby bbq » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:10 am

Carnegie summed it all up with his own words and they could be found in quite a few books

Casebook for The Foundation: A Great American Secret
http://books.google.com/books?id=5RmHA1SAoAgC&pg=PA10

Seeking the Cure: A History of Medicine in America
http://books.google.com/books?id=nk2fVp7Xgn8C&pg=PA154

https://cspcs.sanford.duke.edu/sites/default/files/descriptive/flexner_report.pdf#page=3 wrote:Ironically, Flexner's report had the effect of deterring Carnegie from focusing his own philanthropic resources on reform of medical education. After learning of the report's findings,. Carnegie told Flexner, “[y]ou have proved that medical education is a business. I will not endow any other man's business.” Until Carnegie's death, virtually no support for medical education reform came from Carnegie philanthropies.

Here's that full blown report:

http://archive.carnegiefoundation.org/pdfs/elibrary/Carnegie_Flexner_Report.pdf

The Flexner Report and “Flexner Report II”: Deciding How and What You’ll be Taught in Medical School
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/02/the-flexner-rep.html

Speaking of Rockefeller, his father most definitely knew what he's doing:

Meet William Rockefeller, Snake Oil Salesman
https://www.corbettreport.com/meet-william-rockefeller-snake-oil-salesman/
http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/ExpertInterviewTranscripts/InterviewEllenBrown.pdf wrote:EB: Well, the drug connection… In the 19th century, John D. Rockefeller’s father was actually, literally, a snake-oil salesman.

DM:[Laughs]

EB:He was a patent remedy seller. The drugs, of course, are oil-based, and John D. Rockefeller was an oil magnate. He also had a bank.

The entire interview was such a joy to watch, it certainly helps to understand banking just a little bit:

http://youtu.be/WldtuZv82Hs

So yeah, it's all about one patent after another since that's exactly what he did back then. We could tell why modern medicine is also revolving whatever the heck that could be patented while foods simply aren't as important for blatantly obvious reasons.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby greensheep » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:26 am

This is such an interesting thread. I do think it's true that there are some people who get some sort of satisfaction or even joy out of being sick or injured or in pain all the time. It's the way they've learned that they can get attention and sympathy. I wonder if this type of person has become so common, particularly among people who see pain management doctors, that that specialty has begun to assume everyone is like this. Maybe it's so surprising to them to come across someone who wants to get better, who is willing to try anything (within reason) that they just don't know how to respond to them and have forgotten how to try to truly help rather than just throw pills at them. And maybe it's sort of a vicious cycle, because so many patients don't get a solution that works from their doctor, so they have sort of a "learned helplessness" thing going on. And to take that even further, I suppose there's some "learned helplessness" on the part of the doctor, too. It must be depressing when narcotics don't permanently take away your patient's pain, or blood pressure medicine doesn't knock down the numbers more than a few points, or they gain all the weight back after bariatric surgery.

I don't mean that all doctors or all patients are like this. Of course there are some who truly are making a difference.

I also keep hearing about insurance companies tightening their noose around the healthcare industry. If a doctor only has 15 minutes per patient, there's no way that doctor can listen carefully to the patient's concerns, ask thoughtful follow-up questions and listen to the answers, do a thorough exam, and discuss and explain a solution to whatever the problems are. I am fortunate enough to not need any doctors other than my dermatologist and Ob/Gyn (both for yearly exams), plus my dentist, and I've never really had any concerns, but I can't imagine how I could possibly leave feeling heard and understood, and understanding the way forward, if I did have any concerns. I mean, they're practically out the door before I can say, "Nope, no problems. Everything's been fine, thanks."

As for doctors in general, it seems that it's very, very difficult to change the way things are done in medicine. "We've always done it this way" or "This is how I was taught" seems to be the answer so often. My goodness, it took about 50 years to stop the practice of blood-letting after it was discovered that it didn't help! And even though hand-washing was shown to have huge benefits many decades ago, hospitals are still trying to convince staff to do it as often as they should!

Someone mentioned arrogance on the part of doctors, and "knowing" they are right. It seems to me that that's becoming more common with people in general. Just yesterday, I was in a new-to-me grocery store, chatting with the cashier about random things. I mentioned that I had read that kids tend to look up more than adults, so they notice more things up high, like a person waving from a balcony. Her immediate response was, "No, I don't think so. Kids are always looking down." Never mind the fact that I had gotten this information from a research study and she was just talking about her own observation. Of course, the study I read could be wrong. And the whole thing isn't really a life-and-death topic. But what happened to responses like, "Oh, that's interesting! I would have thought it was the other way around! Where did you read about that?" People just shut each other down, based on almost nothing. It's frustrating. (Maybe this is an American thing. I would never expect to have a conversation like this in, say, Japan.)

Anyway, it's the same with food. "Oil is bad for you." "Of course it's not. You're wrong." End of discussion. When did we become so closed-minded?! Maybe we could all learn a thing or two if we were open to conversation.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby Dougalling » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:45 am

Well, if insurance companies get their money from you, and they own the drug companies, they'll take your money and tell doctors to sell you their drugs so they can get even more of your money.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby bbq » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:47 pm

Which begs the question what's the point of having so much money when more people than ever are getting sick. Either they're smart enough to keep a miracle cure (that's even more miraculous than whatever they're promoting on Dr. Oz Show) to themselves, or they're dumb enough to ignore the fact that the golden age of antibiotics should be coming to an end.

When SHTF and we really don't have a viable treatment option for infectious diseases from hell, the best they could do is hiding in a bug-out location for an indefinite amount time unless they're planning to become Martians. And then if things were really getting THAT bad, they could hire the best security guards in the world but eventually someone who's supposedly loyal will decide to kill them and take over everything inside their bunker.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby Spiral » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:43 pm

My office of about 10 people went out to a restaurant for Lunch a few days ago. It was partially work related. But often the conversation drifted away from work issues.

One guy mentioned that he had a blood test and his HbA1c come out to 7.1. So, his doctor told him he was diabetic. This guy said, "I'm not diabetic. I feel fine."

Another co-worker, who has been a type 2 diabetic for years said, "Oh, 7.1 is fine. You're okay."

One co-worker asked if anyone had anything interesting going on over the weekend. I mentioned that I would be having people over at my house for a lunch, a pitch-in consisting of vegan, no-oil food. I got some questions as to how long I have been eating this way.

At one point, one co-worker said, "I would die if I had to eat that way."

So, I think many people, even those diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, don't think there is anything wrong. They are living the American dream, eating all of the foods they enjoy. They take their medications. They attend their scheduled doctor's appointments and keep their diabetes "under control." They get to "enjoy life." Whereas doing what we are doing would basically be the end of the world for them.

Now, this isn't the attitude of everyone.

A co-worker (a woman who I do not see because I work in a very large building) was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and told her doctor that she wanted 3 months to see if she could treat the problem with a vegan diet. When I told her that vegetable oil might be best avoided, she stopped using it. She watched Jeff Novick's Calorie Density video.

But most people seem to fall into the "I'm doing fine. I just listen to what my doctor says. And I can still eat the foods I want" camp.

Maybe people like us who actually take the time to learn and retrain our habits are just weird.
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Re: When did doctors go so wrong?!

Postby f1jim » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:56 pm

Put yourself in the doctors shoes....To make it work financially you schedule appointments every 10-15 minutes, you do the best those precious minutes allow, you treat patients knowing almost zero about nutrition and health. Your source of information comes primarily from the drug companies, you only get reimbursed for "conventional treatments.
Now, do you get an understanding of the position doctors are in? They are no more or less evil as any one else in the health care world. They use what they are trained in, making use of the resources they have on hand. That means almost nobody is going to be successfully healed of chronic disease. Is it their fault? No more or less than any of the other players....Pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and the patients themselves. All make critical errors in fixing the main issues we face.
Those of us blessed with a bit more insight as to the issues are a very small group. We are a growing group, though. We will expect and demand changes as our voices grow louder and the system crumbles under it's own weight.
Our day is coming.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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