Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

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Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby Spiral » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:03 pm

I wandered over to a Diabetes discussion forum this afternoon and read some old threads where someone introduced "The Starch Solution" as a discussion topic. My sense from browsing the comments is that most of the participants in the forum are into some version of a low-carb diet.

Anyway, someone quoted extensively from Dr. McDougall's "Starch Solution" book and as I was reading the McDougall quote, I was just nodding my head, thinking of how McDougall's argument was common sense intertwined with scientific data.

But the response was simply this:
I tried eating a high starch diet and two hours after my meal, my blood sugar numbers were very high.

Reading these threads, one gets the sense that people are struggling with the low-carb diet. They try upping the fat or upping the protein or even going full bore ketogenic, but they can't seem to get a handle on their blood sugar numbers. One gets the sense that many of the participants in the forum have been at this for years.

Yet, because a high starch diet can't magically fix a type 2 diabetic within two hours of eating a single high starch meal, a high carb diet can't be considered anything less than pure crazy pants. :crybaby:

It seems that the same desire for instant gratification that seduces people into the Standard American Diet, and the resulting type 2 diabetes, also requires someone to see excellent blood sugar numbers from the very outset of a high starch diet.

Of course, one could try to teach someone a little about the physiology of insulin resistance and the fact that it might take several days of a high starch diet to notice improvements in the blood sugar numbers. But this would be dismissed with,
"This is going to cause me to go blind in the short term; I can't think long term."


The failure to understand the physiology behind type 2 diabetes and the failure to think beyond the next two hour post meal blood sugar test dooms people to a lifetime of frustration and perhaps amputation, if not kidney failure and heart disease.

Frustrating. So, I'll take a break from browsing the diabetes forums. :?
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby colonyofcells » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:06 pm

The mainstream still mostly promotes a higher fat diet bec carbs will cause blood sugar to go up. The mainstream does not view foods are real foods and tends to view foods in terms of carb, fat and protein which is too reductionistic. Some vegan gurus do not object to higher fat vegan diets as long as the fatty vegan foods are not refined such as nuts, seeds and avocado.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby Birdy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:33 am

Hi Spiral,
Because I have diabetes, I've also occasionally visited the diabetes forums. And I've noticed, as you did, that the emphasis is strongly on a low-carb dietary approach. A lot of the diabetics also learn from these forums and their diabetes educator the idea of using their glucometer to measure blood sugar frequently to assess how the foods they're consuming affect their blood sugars. Which explains what you wrote about one person's response to trying the Starch Solution, "I tried eating a high starch diet and two hours after my meal, my blood sugar numbers were very high." Dr. McDougall has stated in at least one of his videos something to the effect that he isn't concerned how high peoples' blood sugar measures after eating starches. Which kind of surprised me, but I think he's seen so many diabetics improve long term while eating this way that he isn't concerned. The other thing for diabetics is that there is so much conflicting and confusing advice out there. It truly is hard to know what to do and does result in people trying all kinds of approaches and continuing to struggle with controlling their diabetes. It's a hard disease. Does the plant based diet reverse diabetes for everyone? No I don't think the research shows that. Does it improve overall health and reduce risk of heart and kidney disease, neuropathy, blindness or other complications? Probably. Likely. These are only some of the many questions about diabetes. In my own case, I've done a massive amount of research on this topic but ultimately there really is no clear cut one way and one way only. The only thing that finally improved my health was significant weight loss and Metformin (an oral medication for diabetes). And if there is any consensus in the research it's definitely that weight loss is the most powerful way to improve and/or reverse this condition.
"The program is essentially cost and risk free." ~ Dr. John McDougall
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby colonyofcells » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:34 am

I have to agree about weight loss as the main way diabetes is getting reversed and the starch solution is a good way to lose weight. Getting rid of abdominal fat via weight loss is probably a good way to reverse diabetes. Based on informal observations in our own family, I suspect people who exercise a lot can also avoid diabetes. I would guess that diabetes is rare in athletes. Getting plenty of exercise and sunshine probably helps a lot.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby f1jim » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:13 am

Certainly, weight loss helps most people with type 2 diabetes. Dr. McDougall explains that type 2 is the body's way of dealing with weight gain so it stands to reason weight loss greatly helps the insulin resistance. We believe this way of eating is the healthiest way to achieve weight loss.
I personally have not met anyone diagnosed with diabetes that has adopted this program, achieved their ideal weight, and still was on medications to treat their blood sugar issues. I am sure, like with any condition their are exceptions but that's where we must start.
It is a difficult hurdle to convince someone to look long term at their condition and treat the cause, not the symptoms. It's human nature to seek the fastest result with the least effort. That's cooked into all of us.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby Spiral » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:27 am

f1jim wrote:Certainly, weight loss helps most people with type 2 diabetes. Dr. McDougall explains that type 2 is the body's way of dealing with weight gain so it stands to reason weight loss greatly helps the insulin resistance.

And the science seems to be very clear in that the consumption of meat and fat (including vegetable fat) is one of the causes of insulin resistance.

Video: What Causes Insulin Resistance

Even high sugar diets don't cause insulin resistance as effectively as do high fat diets.

Also, the issue of calorie density, water and fiber is completely absent discussions of type 2 diabetes in those diabetes forums.

So, then you throw in the short term mentality of constant after meal testing to "see how your body responds to the foods you eat," and there is no way the average type 2 diabetic is going to find their way out of the maze.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby colonyofcells » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:16 pm

Eating unrefined vegan foods probably has lots of benefits for diabetics not recognized by those who have reductionist views of food and see only carb, fat and protein.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby katgirl55 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Intramyocellular lipids are the cause of insulin resistance. Fat in the muscles. It would take a few days of eating low fat high starch to reduce this storage of fat, and therefore lower blood sugars. Diabetics who are on insulin should be monitoring their sugars regularly so they know how much insulin to take before meals. The rest of them are pretty much just obsessed with their numbers. A1c and fasting sugars are what they should be more concerned about because these represent the average blood sugar levels over time.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby colonyofcells » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:20 pm

If unrefined vegan diets can reverse diabetes, I would guess that the 2 hour after meal blood sugar levels should also look ok. If diabetes is really reversed, all 3 tests should look ok : hba1c, fasting blood sugar, 2 hour after meals blood sugar. For diabetics switching from high fat diets to Starch Solution, initially, the 2 hour after meals blood sugar might look worse altho if people have patience, once diabetes is reversed, even the 2 hour after meals blood sugar should look like that of a non diabetic.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby trotskyite » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:56 am

Interestingy true reversal of type 2 dm (with normalised beta cell function) was found after a diet which seens to have been around 1/3rd sugar admittedly it was only 800kcal/day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby bbq » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:16 am

Eleven people with type 2 diabetes (49.5 ± 2.5 years, BMI 33.6 ± 1.2 kg/m2, nine male and two female) were studied before and after 1, 4 and 8 weeks of a 2.5 MJ (600 kcal)/day diet.

Living off 600 kcal would be a fun experience for sure, let's see what they're doing back then:

Diabetes Reversal: Is it the Calories or the Food?
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabetes-reversal-is-it-the-calories-or-the-food/
Diets were designed to be weight-maintaining. Participants were weighed every day, and if they started losing weight, the researchers made them eat more food. In fact, so much food some of the participants had trouble eating it all, but they eventually adapted; so, there was no significant alterations in body weight despite restrictions of meat, dairy, and eggs, and enough whole plant foods—whole grains, beans, vegetables, and fruit—to provide 65 grams of fiber a day, four times what the Standard American Diet provides.

The control diet they used was the conventional diabetic diet, which actually had nearly twice the fiber content of the Standard American Diet; so, it was probably healthier than what they were used to eating. So, how did they do? With zero weight loss, did the dietary intervention still help? Here’s the before and after insulin requirements of the 20 people they put on the diet. This is the number of units of insulin they had to inject themselves with before and after going on the plant-based diet. Overall, insulin requirements were cut about 60%; half were able to get off insulin altogether, despite no change in weight. So, was this after five years, or seven months, like in the other studies I showed? No, 16 days.

So, we’re talking diabetics who’ve had diabetes as long as 20 years, injecting 20 units of insulin a day, and then, as few as 13 days later, they’re off insulin altogether, thanks to less than two weeks on a plant-based diet. Patient 15: 32 units of insulin on the control diet, and then, 18 days later, none. Lower blood sugars on 32 units less insulin. That’s the power of plants.

And as a bonus, their cholesterol dropped like a rock, in 16 days. Just like moderate changes in diet usually result in only modest reductions in cholesterol, asking people with diabetes to make moderate changes often achieves equally moderate results, which is one possible reason why most end up on drugs, injections, or both. Everything in moderation may be a truer statement than people realize. Moderate changes in diet can leave one with moderate blindness, moderate kidney failure, and moderate amputations. Moderation in all things is not necessarily a good thing.

Reversing Diabetes with Surgery
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/reversing-diabetes-surgery/
And just severe caloric restriction alone can improve diabetes. So, is it the diet or the surgery? We didn’t know… until this study. They put diabetics on the exact same post-surgery diet, with and without the actual surgery.

They found that their diabetes improved rapidly on the surgery diet before they had the surgery. In fact, the improvement in blood sugar control was better on the diet alone than after the surgery. Blood sugar control improved better in the absence of surgery, suggesting that the whole surgical-diabetes-reversal is not due to the surgery at all, but just the diet people have to go on in the hospital during recovery. So, the clinical implication is that nonsurgical interventions have as much potential to resolve diabetes as does major surgery.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby colonyofcells » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:16 pm

I would guess that diabetics who have switched from high fat diet to starch solution, many probably gave up after less than 1 week due to high blood sugars 2 hours after meal. It requires some faith to stick to the starch solution diet and to wait for long term results. I sympathize with diabetics altho I lack experience with diabetes since I did my lifestyle changes when I got prediabetes rather than diabetes. Prediabetes is also quite hard to manage since I still have some abdominal fat even at normal bmi of 21 (normal bmi for asians is about 18 to 22) and I probably need to lose more weight.
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby bbq » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:27 am

It literally takes two to tango, both added sugars and fats are working together synergistically to wreak havoc.

Those sugars must go somewhere while the fats are blocking the entrances, how could anyone actually expect to exercise like crazy in order to mobilize those intramyocellular lipids?

Obviously I don't agree with him but the figures speak for themselves:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/seed-oils-and-body-fatness-problematic.html
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http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2012/02/my-tedx-talk-american-diet-historical.html
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http://www.wwefr.com/the-sugar-consumption-to-diabetes-cancer-connection/
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby katgirl55 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:41 am

This is why low carb diets give the illusion of working: there is less glucose in meals to float around in the blood stream and cause high blood glucose readings after meals. It is not fixing the problem, which is the intramyocellular lipids, it only masks it and makes it worse since there is higher fat intake. Once the problem is fixed insulin works correctly and you could eat table sugar and still get a decent reading after meals. This is why the Rice Diet worked. This si why Dr. McDougall is not concerned with postprandial readings. He knows that after a short time eating this way the fat in the muscles will reduce and insulin will work correctly again.

But those who get caught up in those initial high readings without understanding the mechanism give up too soon. :duh:
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Re: Diabetes and the failure to think beyond two hours

Postby Spiral » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:03 pm

Sammm wrote:Hi all,

I followed two years ketogenic diet and last four months was zero carb diet where I ate only 20% fat ground beef. My veins started to bulge like crazy on my head all the time, my lips are bluish color all the time and I started to feel this small pressure feeling on the left side of my chest.

Do you think that these effects are solely from ketogenic diet and are these problems possible to reverse with Mcdougall diet? I'm just 34 years old and I started to look really sick. I really hope this is reversible! I started to follow Mcdougall diet this week and I'm loving it!

Yes, I do think that the effects that you describe were solely (or mostly) due to the impact of the ketogenic diet you were on. I also think that if you keep up following the McDougall diet, you will be able to see your symptoms regress. Keep us updated.
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