7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Atheria » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:46 pm

I agree.
~ ATHERIA ~
www.bridge4spirit.wordpress.com
User avatar
Atheria
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:45 pm
Location: Santa Fe, NM - USA

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby nicoles » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:54 pm

Chikiwing wrote:And it's not politically correct but a little fat shaming can do a lot of good. Telling people (mostly females) big is beautiful and they are healthy at every size is toxic. Telling a friend to stop eating junk food and get off their fat butt and walk a few miles with you is not so bad. At least to me it isn't.


It's 100% true that the fat acceptance movement, as far as I am aware of it at least, is directed at females primarily. What I always thought was interesting is that males seem to have a different sort of pressure - being "too small" isn't manly enough. As though there has been a "fat acceptance" movement for men for years, but without a name. Overweight or large = baseline "manly".

Both are unhelpful for physical health. Like you said, Chikiwing - toxic.
Tough times don't last, tough people do

Read the results of my journey here: Nicole S. O'Shea vs. Psoriatic Arthritis

My Journal
User avatar
nicoles
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Atheria » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:01 pm

I just saw this bodybuilder on YouTube defending having a gut as a man by saying it means he's more virile! What?!
~ ATHERIA ~
www.bridge4spirit.wordpress.com
User avatar
Atheria
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:45 pm
Location: Santa Fe, NM - USA

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Chikiwing » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:36 pm

nicoles wrote:What I always thought was interesting is that males seem to have a different sort of pressure - being "too small" isn't manly enough.

:D
My mind jumped right over weight and went right into smut with that comment!

:oops:

:D
“Americanism, not Globalism, will be our credo!”― Donald J. Trump
User avatar
Chikiwing
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:15 pm
Location: South of you.

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby nicoles » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:28 pm

Chikiwing wrote:
nicoles wrote:What I always thought was interesting is that males seem to have a different sort of pressure - being "too small" isn't manly enough.

:D
My mind jumped right over weight and went right into smut with that comment!

:oops:

:D

:lol:

Maybe I should have written "to thin"? Hm, no.

Too tiny? Nope...

Not Large?

OK no escaping it!

:lol:
Tough times don't last, tough people do

Read the results of my journey here: Nicole S. O'Shea vs. Psoriatic Arthritis

My Journal
User avatar
nicoles
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby patty » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:14 pm

It is education that works. I remember a girlfriend sharing when she first came to the US, she couldn't believe all the fruits and vegetables at the grocery market. I had to laugh but there was a tv commercial where a mother of color, is asking her two boys, "Why are you putting tape on my floor." And the one boy squatting by one of the newly put tapes, about a foot or so beside another tape, said "I made it from here". Then the view goes directly to the toilet":)

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby amandamechele » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:38 pm

Chikiwing wrote:
ETeSelle wrote:Being fat is something over which 99.99% of the population has total control, and the fact that they do not wish to give up their doughnuts really is deserving of a little shaming, IMHO.

Yep.

And it's not politically correct but a little fat shaming can do a lot of good. Telling people (mostly females) big is beautiful and they are healthy at every size is toxic. Telling a friend to stop eating junk food and get off their fat butt and walk a few miles with you is not so bad. At least to me it isn't.


I will respectfully disagree with you both. A little fat shaming does not "do a lot of good" and no one is deserving of it.
User avatar
amandamechele
 
Posts: 1523
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby vgpedlr » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:42 pm

amandamechele wrote:
I will respectfully disagree with you both. A little fat shaming does not "do a lot of good" and no one is deserving of it.

+1

We've been round this merry go round before.

Shaming someone in my experience very rarely works. People quite naturally take it as a judgment of them as a person. It is demeaning and demoralizing. It is not motivating. None of the smokers I've known quit because they were shamed into it, and shaming smokers is socially acceptable. They quit for their own reasons. And it's not like the dangers of smoking are in doubt, or in any way confusing.

Overweight is trickier. As this thread began with the observation that people do not even know they're overweight! How can you be expected to fix a problem you can't even see?

Even if someone realizes their problem, (how many people know what a healthy BMI even is?) there is so much confusion about how to fix the problem that simply stating "the information is out there" is not enough. The competing narratives and resulting confusion trip up many well intentioned and motivated people. It is not reason enough for shaming. How many people here had to try other ineffective methods first? Would being shamed during that learning process produced better results?

In my mind, to successfully and justifiably fat shame someone requires a lot of knowledge about that person. You have to know, with NO DOUBT that they recognize their problem, know how to fix it, and are willfully ignoring it. Like a smoker. Otherwise, you are making a lot of risky assumptions. Many people who have lost significant weight have recounted the experiences of fat shaming along the way. Despite considerable success, they get shamed because the shamer did not know they've already lost a lot.

Do you know enough about a person to shame them? The risks of becoming the bully are too great for me to comfortably fat shame people.
User avatar
vgpedlr
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:17 pm
Location: NorCal

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby patty » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:23 pm

amandamechele wrote:
Chikiwing wrote:
ETeSelle wrote:Being fat is something over which 99.99% of the population has total control, and the fact that they do not wish to give up their doughnuts really is deserving of a little shaming, IMHO.

Yep.

And it's not politically correct but a little fat shaming can do a lot of good. Telling people (mostly females) big is beautiful and they are healthy at every size is toxic. Telling a friend to stop eating junk food and get off their fat butt and walk a few miles with you is not so bad. At least to me it isn't.


I will respectfully disagree with you both. A little fat shaming does not "do a lot of good" and no one is deserving of it.


When someone points a finger at someone with a chronic illness, they have four more fingers pointing back at them. They say if you treated anyone else the way you treat yourself, you would blow them away with a cannon. So you know how badly they are hurting. We are all transparent. The gig is up:)

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Chikiwing » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:48 am

Science Proves It: Fat-Shaming Works
http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/07/0 ... d-science/

All the virtue signalling reminds me of Ana Kasparian. She spent a year attacking bullies for fat shaming. Then, as soon as she gets angry at a fat person she jumps straight in to fat shaming them! :D LOL! Scratch a liberal and you'll find a hypocrite every time.

Strong language in vid, trigger warnings.
Ana Kasparian fat shames!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0k3-X-_NTY
“Americanism, not Globalism, will be our credo!”― Donald J. Trump
User avatar
Chikiwing
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:15 pm
Location: South of you.

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Kaye » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:43 am

vgpedlr wrote:
amandamechele wrote:
I will respectfully disagree with you both. A little fat shaming does not "do a lot of good" and no one is deserving of it.

+1

We've been round this merry go round before.

Shaming someone in my experience very rarely works. People quite naturally take it as a judgment of them as a person. It is demeaning and demoralizing. It is not motivating. None of the smokers I've known quit because they were shamed into it, and shaming smokers is socially acceptable. They quit for their own reasons. And it's not like the dangers of smoking are in doubt, or in any way confusing.

Overweight is trickier. As this thread began with the observation that people do not even know they're overweight! How can you be expected to fix a problem you can't even see?

Even if someone realizes their problem, (how many people know what a healthy BMI even is?) there is so much confusion about how to fix the problem that simply stating "the information is out there" is not enough. The competing narratives and resulting confusion trip up many well intentioned and motivated people. It is not reason enough for shaming. How many people here had to try other ineffective methods first? Would being shamed during that learning process produced better results?

In my mind, to successfully and justifiably fat shame someone requires a lot of knowledge about that person. You have to know, with NO DOUBT that they recognize their problem, know how to fix it, and are willfully ignoring it. Like a smoker. Otherwise, you are making a lot of risky assumptions. Many people who have lost significant weight have recounted the experiences of fat shaming along the way. Despite considerable success, they get shamed because the shamer did not know they've already lost a lot.

Do you know enough about a person to shame them? The risks of becoming the bully are too great for me to comfortably fat shame people.


100% agree, I don't really understand why anyone wants to "shame" anyone else about anything. We've all got our problems and we all come to our own point of doing something about it for whatever reason. I hoped never to regain the weight I lost (50 pounds) but I'm only human and to my distress I did regain 10 pounds which I still haven't shifted. I know I did so what the heck would it achieve if some other smug git told me?
Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate, Completed February 2017, T. Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies and eCornell
Kaye
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:22 am
Location: South of England.

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby bbq » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:00 am

'I never encourage people to try to look like me': Worryingly thin vlogger defends herself as thousands sign petition to ban her from YouTube amid claims she is promoting anorexia
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3882350/Change-org-petition-calls-severely-vlogger-banned-YouTube-thousands-accuse-promoting-anorexia-teenage-fans.html

Body Shamming Eugenia?
http://youtu.be/Y5Asi7ZqwXo#t=945

More PROOF Eugenia Cooney isn't Anorexic; But Fat Activists Want Her Banned From Youtube!
http://youtu.be/B5JD99-JVlo

If someone weren't getting the right number of calories at all, sign the petition and shut her up while shutting her YouTube channel down temporarily.

If plenty of people weren't getting calories from the right sources while the costs of healthcare are skyrocketing, it's OK to keep quiet and pretend that's "normal" in such an abnormal society.

We can't make much money off people who are skinny, sick, and nearly dead. OTOH, it's more like a goldmine and a half since it's such a low hanging fruit to double/triple/quadruple-dip when people are gaining/losing/regaining weight these days:

After 'The Biggest Loser,' Their Bodies Fought to Regain Weight
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

Diet versus Exercise in “The Biggest Loser” Weight Loss Competition
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3660472/

Metabolic adaptation following massive weight loss is related to the degree of energy imbalance and changes in circulating leptin
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236233/

Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition
http://sci-hub.cc/10.1002/oby.21538
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.21538/abstract

It's such an understatement to talk about something along the lines of "MAN, we're living in such a strange world."
bbq
 
Posts: 2168
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 am

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby Chikiwing » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:24 am

Kaye wrote:
100% agree, I don't really understand why anyone wants to "shame" anyone else about anything.

I do.

And somehow all this Anti-Shaming rhetoric ends up producing women on magazine covers that look like the ones I show here. It all sounds good, like communism, but when it's implemented it's a disaster because it doesn't take into account human nature.

Image

Image
“Americanism, not Globalism, will be our credo!”― Donald J. Trump
User avatar
Chikiwing
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:15 pm
Location: South of you.

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby patty » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 am

Kaye wrote:
vgpedlr wrote:
amandamechele wrote:
I will respectfully disagree with you both. A little fat shaming does not "do a lot of good" and no one is deserving of it.

+1

We've been round this merry go round before.

Shaming someone in my experience very rarely works. People quite naturally take it as a judgment of them as a person. It is demeaning and demoralizing. It is not motivating. None of the smokers I've known quit because they were shamed into it, and shaming smokers is socially acceptable. They quit for their own reasons. And it's not like the dangers of smoking are in doubt, or in any way confusing.

Overweight is trickier. As this thread began with the observation that people do not even know they're overweight! How can you be expected to fix a problem you can't even see?

Even if someone realizes their problem, (how many people know what a healthy BMI even is?) there is so much confusion about how to fix the problem that simply stating "the information is out there" is not enough. The competing narratives and resulting confusion trip up many well intentioned and motivated people. It is not reason enough for shaming. How many people here had to try other ineffective methods first? Would being shamed during that learning process produced better results?

In my mind, to successfully and justifiably fat shame someone requires a lot of knowledge about that person. You have to know, with NO DOUBT that they recognize their problem, know how to fix it, and are willfully ignoring it. Like a smoker. Otherwise, you are making a lot of risky assumptions. Many people who have lost significant weight have recounted the experiences of fat shaming along the way. Despite considerable success, they get shamed because the shamer did not know they've already lost a lot.

Do you know enough about a person to shame them? The risks of becoming the bully are too great for me to comfortably fat shame people.


100% agree, I don't really understand why anyone wants to "shame" anyone else about anything. We've all got our problems and we all come to our own point of doing something about it for whatever reason. I hoped never to regain the weight I lost (50 pounds) but I'm only human and to my distress I did regain 10 pounds which I still haven't shifted. I know I did so what the heck would it achieve if some other smug git told me?


They say we are never upset for the reason we think we are. And when we give up attack thoughts we give up being attacked. When someone draws a circle that excludes, draw a circle that is inclusive.

There are 4 control dramas, intimidation, interrogation, poor me (like pour me another drink) and aloof. I find when I feel intimidated or one of the other control dramas, I have to check to see which one I am matching. When I do, say I feel like I am being victimized (the poor me) then there is a shift of consciousness. Aloofness is harder to catch. We all have matching junk that transcends into matching allurement. In Jeff Novick's Calorie Density dvd, he shares we subconsciously eat the same amount of WEIGHT of food daily.

In a state of fight or flight, the cortisol sends the blood to our limbs, leaving our vital organs unprotected. Justified anger is just as harmful as unjustified. It is only when emotionally detaching, there are no consequences. Though in order to do that though the person has to be aware they are in state of fight or flight. Then it is to act as if as they become emotionally detached. The opposing person/situation, will have to find someone else to attack/feed on, because they are no longer being fed. That is why they say never chase a drunk. The dance goes on and on, though being unhooked, Love can be present from afar. It is always Not two. I am You.

In the islands people are aware the power isn't when the volcano erupts because it is the invisible that brings back the grass through the lava, where the birds, the trees come back. Hawaiian families have a Aumakua/Totem. Ours is The Sea Turtle/Honu. It is only the seeing that sees.

I used to love to play 'I Love it when you call me names' by Joan Armatradinghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wU-1w3U2OAI

Aloha, Patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: 7 in 10 people are overweight and in denial

Postby amandamechele » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:58 am

Chikiwing,

I hesitate to respond because I feel like I am throwing gasoline on a fire that I'm desperately trying to put out. But I felt strongly enough to log my dissent, originally, so I guess I am partially responsible for where this thread is now heading. I feel very strongly about this issue (recognizing I have a personal history that introduces bias), as do you it appears. So here are my thoughts:

I am not virtue signalling, though maybe it came off that way because I neglected to put the words "in my opinion" in my post.

I understand your and some other poster's point. You worry that the media and body positive groups are going to convince people this is the new normal, that being fat is healthy.
But doesn't your argument about human nature work against this? Men tend to find younger, healthier and fit females more attractive then those who are not. Obese women are having this signalled to them everyday, so don't you worry, they know it! They are just trying to find other ways to gain self-esteem in order to get through all other aspects of life while trying to figure out the very complex and difficult problem of what they believe is eating under the hunger drive for the very long amount of time required to actually take off a large amount of weight. I feel you may be virtue signalling as you look down on them for not having the same understanding and knowledge about diet that you already do.

I take issue with your message's tone and use of the phrase fat shaming because it indicates you want to say something that hurts, or makes uncomfortable, another individual in hopes that it affects a change in their behaviour to your desired goal. Here is a media article (which lists some researchers, but has no actual references) about healthy shame and toxic shame.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201401/guilt-good-shame-bad

Most people associate the word shame with toxic shame and that is why I think your strategy does not work. I also think the beginning of this article effectively addresses the points brought up in the media link that you posted.(I do not have time for the other link about Ana, so I cannot comment there).

Maybe our disagreement here all comes down to semantics ! :)

Other random thoughts:
The woman on the magazine cover isn't there for your approval or enjoyment (in reference to your human nature comment). As you have pointed out in another thread and I will point out here, she is there to sell something. Period. A more obese society = more obese people selling things. (See how I DIDN'T single out the model for shame, but the system)

I'm sure we agree that getting people to eat a diet based on starches, legumes, vegetables and fruits is the point of this whole website. Do you think your statements are working for or against that goal? Will someone looking for change be more likely or less likely to take the time to learn the vast amount of information necessary to transition to this way of eating if they feel attacked by the very group of people that are supposed to be supporting them?

Is there not a more sensitive way for you to get your point across?

Amy


Sent from my iPhone
User avatar
amandamechele
 
Posts: 1523
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:13 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.