Dr. McDougall on No-Meat Athlete Radio

[Katydid]

Excellent interview with Dr. M on No-Meat Athlete podcast. I think he may have shocked the host (a Fuhrman devotee) with his bluntness and very UnPC honest answers You can hear the podcast here: http://www.nomeatathlete.com/

Kate

[amandamechele]

Thanks for posting the link, Kate!

[colonyofcells]

The interviewer seems to misunderstand the Dr Fuhrman diet as a high fat diet. Dr Fuhrman actually prefers not to talk about fat vs carbs as the major source of calories. My impression is that the Dr Fuhrman diet can be high starch like from sweet potato (which is usually considered a vegetable by americans rather than as a staple food). Most american diet guides mentions whole grains but never mentions that you can also get adequate calories from roots like sweet potato, potato, parsnip, salsify and fruit like winter squash. Other traditional diets have relied on starch staples like breadfruit and unripe plantains. In asia, can also find unripe papaya and unripe jackfruit. Dr Fuhrman actually also allows whole grains and whole grain breads. Even though the Dr mcdougall diet is mostly unrefined starch, it does rely on vegetables to get more micronutrients. Dr Mcdougall also prefers to limit high protein foods like beans, peas and lentils to 1 cup cooked whereas Dr Fuhrman does not try to limit these. Soy is in the same class of high fat foods like nuts and seeds and all these have to be limited in the Dr Mcdougall diet.
The interviewer also seems to misunderstand the diet of Dr Greger. My impression is that Dr Greger gets most of his calories from purple sweet potato (or other unrefined starch) (plus canned beans) similar to the 1949 okinawa diet.
There are differences in emphasis on how to get enough daily calories. Dr Mcdougall emphasizes unrefined starch and then add some vegetables for micronutrients. Other vegan gurus tell people to eat the vegetables or gbombs first and then if short on calories or still hungry, can eat more unrefined starches.

[wade4veg]

Dr Fuhrman actually prefers not to talk about fat vs carbs as the major source of calories. My impression is that the Dr Fuhrman diet can be high starch like from sweet potato (which is usually considered a vegetable by americans rather than as a staple food).

There are differences in emphasis on how to get enough daily calories. Dr Mcdougall emphasizes unrefined starch and then add some vegetables for micronutrients. Other vegan gurus tell people to eat the vegetables or gbombs first and then if short on calories or still hungry, can eat more unrefined starches.

When I listen to Dr. Fuhrman's diet on PBS fundraising, he seems way way-- WAY focused on "micronutrients" as being the magic goal to cure or prevent A-Z.
In fact Dr. McDougall's comments seem almost tailor made to address Dr. Fuhrman's excessive focus on "micronutrients"
"
However, the extent or emphasis he makes in the tape about potentially excessive intake of micronutrients, makes me wonder how that squares up with Dr. Esselstyn's advice to eat greens 6 times a day for a steady bathing of the coronary arteries in nitrous oxide.
Isn't that advice a total overloading of the system with a excessive amount of narrowly focused "micronutrients" ?

[colonyofcells]

Dr Greger has a video on how much broccoli sprouts you have to eat to get overloaded. There are also tales of people who overloaded on tofu. For the greens, it is probably easier to get overloaded if consuming juices like wheat grass juice.

[Skip]

Here is what Dr. Fuhrman recommends quoted from Fuhrman, Dr. Joel. Fasting and Eating for Health: A Medical Doctor's Program For Conquering Disease (p. 44).
A Natural Plant-Based Diet Is a More Sensible Approach

For ideal nutrition, I recommend a low-fat, lowered-protein, low-sodium diet; one that is high in raw, unrefined carbohydrates. Meals can consist entirely of fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grains, and raw nuts and seeds used judiciously. This will cut the protein content to less than 75 grams per day. A large salad of green lettuce should be consumed daily. This ideal diet consists of at least 40 percent of calories from vegetables, including raw vegetables, steamed green vegetables, and cooked starches such as squash and potato. Fruit comprises another 25 percent of the diet, and grains, beans, nuts, and seeds another 25 percent. This diet would derive not more than 15 percent of calories from fat, 10 to 15 percent of calories from protein, and 70 to 75 percent of calories from complex carbohydrate. The fat would come from the natural foods themselves, not from extracted oils. Refined food products, all sweeteners, added-salt and salted products, as well as soft drinks, coffee, and caffeine drinks would be excluded from an optimal diet. Dairy products would be eliminated or consumed infrequently.

[f1jim]

"However, the extent or emphasis he makes in the tape about potentially excessive intake of micronutrients, makes me wonder how that squares up with Dr. Esselstyn's advice to eat greens 6 times a day for a steady bathing of the coronary arteries in nitrous oxide.
Isn't that advice a total overloading of the system with a excessive amount of narrowly focused "micronutrients" ?"

Nope. It's trying to jumpstart the dilation process of arteries that in most people eating SAD has stopped. It's definitely not focused on micronutrients, it's focused on the bodies own production of NO through their best dietary source. This is not conflicting with the advice of where to get ones primary calories. Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. McDougall are both sold on starches as the primary vehicle for calories. The creation of NO does not block or cripple the bodies access to any other nutrient since the NO isn't technically in the greens. The greens are simply the vehicle for the raw materials the body needs to manufacture the NO.
f1jim

[Jack Monzon]

Here is what Dr. Fuhrman recommends quoted from Fuhrman, Dr. Joel. Fasting and Eating for Health: A Medical Doctor's Program For Conquering Disease (p. 44).
A Natural Plant-Based Diet Is a More Sensible Approach

For ideal nutrition, I recommend a low-fat, lowered-protein, low-sodium diet; one that is high in raw, unrefined carbohydrates. Meals can consist entirely of fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grains, and raw nuts and seeds used judiciously. This will cut the protein content to less than 75 grams per day. A large salad of green lettuce should be consumed daily. This ideal diet consists of at least 40 percent of calories from vegetables, including raw vegetables, steamed green vegetables, and cooked starches such as squash and potato. Fruit comprises another 25 percent of the diet, and grains, beans, nuts, and seeds another 25 percent. This diet would derive not more than 15 percent of calories from fat, 10 to 15 percent of calories from protein, and 70 to 75 percent of calories from complex carbohydrate. The fat would come from the natural foods themselves, not from extracted oils. Refined food products, all sweeteners, added-salt and salted products, as well as soft drinks, coffee, and caffeine drinks would be excluded from an optimal diet. Dairy products would be eliminated or consumed infrequently.

That sounds sensible to me. Why all the angst over Dr. Fuhrman's approach?

[colonyofcells]

Dr Fuhrman is also doing good work since he managed to convert Dr Anthony Lim from low carb and paleo to whole foods plant based.

[bbq]

It's a relatively short podcast so obviously hyperaccumulators / nutritional imbalance parts couldn't be covered in depth.

About 400 plants that hyperaccumulate metals are reported:

http://www.ejbiotechnology.info/index.php/ejbiotechnology/article/view/v6n3-6/617

Asteraceae
Brassicaceae
Caryophyllaceae
Cyperaceae
Cunouniaceae
Fabaceae
Flacourtiaceae
Lamiaceae
Poaceae
Violaceae
Euphobiaceae

Poaceae (Gramineae) are the most economically important plant family since we're talking about maize (corn), wheat, rice, barley, and millet here.

It wasn't mentioned in the podcast but corn is also a hyperaccumulator of Cesium-137 (radiocesium has a half-life of about 30.17 years) as follows:

https://inis.iaea.org/search/search.aspx?orig_q=RN:36100136
http://www.ichtj.waw.pl/ichtj/nukleon/back/full/vol49_2004/v49s1p13f.pdf

I respect Dr. McDougall very much and therefore I don't wanna get any further than that.

For the imbalance part, Dr. McDougall did state that's theoretical so we've gotta take it easy. Let's take a look at something similar called chemical imbalance according to someone who got her degrees from Cornell and MIT:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellybroganmd
http://kellybroganmd.com/depression-serotonin/

To understand what imbalance is, we must know what balance looks like, and neuroscience, to date, has not characterized the optimal brain state, nor how to even assess for it.

So what's a nutritional balance? Should we ask ADA or USDA for an answer?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/professional-and-career-resources/dietetic-associations

Maybe we could have consulted Roger J. Williams about Biochemical Individuality? How about taking yet another opportunity to make fun of this guy again since that's really my favorite thing to do? (NOT an advertisement, more like entertainment IMHO.)

http://store.drhyman.com/nutritional-balance.html
http://store.drhyman.com/supplements/nutritional-balance.html

Let's just calm down and please don't take it too seriously.

[colonyofcells]

I do not worry about plants accumulating pollution since we do know both starch and vegetables will have some pollution altho I am pretty sure animal products have a lot more pollution than plants. Fungi also tends to be more polluted than plants since fungi are more related to animals. Dr Greger also warns about seaweeds like hijiki which has more pollution. Herbivores have been around since the start of multicellular animals and I sometimes also wonder if it is possible for a person to eat grass the whole day like the cows, horses, sheep and goats if the lack of time is not a problem. Some vegan evangelists claim that humans are herbivores. Some of our close relatives in the ape family do eat mostly plants (like fruits and nuts) and do not get most of their calories from starch altho fruits and nuts are much more expensive compared to starch. I avoid debate since it is hard to prove which unrefined diet is optimal whether tuber based, whole grain based, bean based, fruit based or nut based, altho probably harder to lose weight on a nut based diet and very difficult to get enough calories on a vegetable based diet. Many vegan gurus agree with Dr Mcdougall about avoiding too much protein from beans and many vegan gurus promote about 10% protein. Some low calorie people or low carb people prefer the roots with lower calories like radish and beets.