Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby eshqua » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:33 pm

I would try to say that let's agree to disagree. But if he insists on bringing up diet, I'd point out that 97% of Americans are deficient in fiber. Fiber is only from plant foods. The Ph.D.s who study the Paleolithic era estimate that Paleo man had fiber intakes of 70-150 g per day. An African tribe in Tanzania who still live today like their ancestors from 100s of years ago have been studied a lot and their fiber intake is 100-150 g per day. So Paleo man ate a ton of plant foods. Fiber intake today is so horribly low - like around 15 g per day for the typical American. What's the powerhouse source of fiber: beans and legumes. I seem to recall Paleo diets don't include beans/legumes.

I've also been learning more about magnesium lately from Dr Rhonda Patrick and Dr Bruce Ames. About 45% of Americans have inadequate intakes of magnesium. (I've also seen greater than this in some studies - up to 80%). Dr Ames has come up with a Triage Theory. There are 300+ enzyme reactions that need magnesium. Triage theory states that the magnesium that typical American is getting in the diet is going to enzymes needed for short term survival but there's not enough for the enzyme reactions required for long-term health. DNA repair enzymes require magnesium. Also enzymes for bone health. Where do you get magnesium? Greens especially are a good source but every plant food has magnesium. So it's greens, beans, nuts, seeds, baked potatoes, oatmeal, etc. and every other plant food. Anyone eating Paleo type diets I'm guessing are lacking in magnesium which can mean cancer and osteoporosis down the road.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby colonyofcells » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:12 pm

I heard some paleo people take fiber supplements since animal products have 0 fiber.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Jack Monzon » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:24 pm

Best to probably get some new friends. We all need to shed skin from time to time.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby LowCarbIsDeadly » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:27 pm

He's eating a diet that is healthier than the standard American diet even if he's still eating meat cause he's cut out the processed foods. So it's not surprising to me that people can see health improvements going paleo. I don't believe it's as healthy as a plant based diet just healthier than a SAD since they are eating more real foods and vegetables instead of processed foods. I don't believe most people will have cholesterol numbers in the ideal range to make heart attack risk near zero while still eating saturated fat and cholesterol laden foods though. Your friends cholesterol is still not ideal even if he's lost 100 lbs.

I'd like to see angiographic proof that heart disease has actually regressed by feeding people grass feed beef and kerrygold butter before I'd believe in the diet though. :D
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby bbq » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:56 pm

Your paleolithic buddy with primal intelligence sounded just like Timothy Shieff on London B̶r̶o̶i̶l̶ Real:

http://youtu.be/VZHzZbsIaZw
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Vanilla Orchid » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:50 pm

There are actually some people out in the world who WANT your help. Stop wasting your time on those who don't.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby patty » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:34 am

When agreeing to disagreeing doesn't mean closing the door:) It is just being selective in when intervening with what might help in certain situations. Dr. McDougall when asked about gmo's.. shares global warming.. all the animal waste might be a bigger problem. His book "The Digestion Tune-Up" is the best defense for a healthy body/planet. And it is because of fiber, which animal, poultry and fish don't have. The learning curve of this WOE is very simple and deep. We are all addicted to stuff (biases that make up the "Me", who we "think" we are), just keep remembering it is to identify, not compare. Not two but One. All communication carries us within. You are the most important component in the feedback loop of the outer and inner. And when we make distance we move closer:)

Aloha, patty
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Roey » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:37 am

My Paleo-minded friend was at my place this past weekend. The whole time, he kept telling me what to eat and what to avoid--I'm listening to what he has to say because I know that he has my interests at heart, and who knows, maybe I can pick up on something that I hadn't seen before. Again to be clear, I feel happy and satisfied with MWLP and intend to stay on it.

So regarding all the mentions of fiber in this thread: yes, I did bring up the gross lack of fiber; his answer was that the protein shake has fiber. He asked what I have against protein isolate, as in protein powder (which he says is imperative for me to take because I am deficient in it, and MS in his mind starts with a protein deficiency). I told him that it packs a wallop on your stomach to have all this protein all at once; his solution: put psyllium husk in the protein shake (Organe brand) for more fiber so that that the protein digests slower.

He mentions that he doesn't have to eat more than a few times a day because the protein and fat keep him satiated longer. Personally I like eating every 2-3 hours. I also like taking care of the back-end business just as often. That's a style difference between us, I suppose.

To my friend, my low A1c (5.1, was it? or 5.7? It was the lowest on the scale, I remember seeing) stands testament to the fact that I am "hypoglycemic" (due to the MS.. I didn't know it makes people hypoglycemic?) and need more protein, fat and omega3s (which I need to get from something like fish oil, because apparently even eating all the salads that I do in a day does not get me close to the level that my body apparently needs).

Something he says that feels different to me, given my experience: fat + green-and-yellow vegetables is satiating. That never felt satiating to me, just distending (to him, he calls this distending feeling "satiation").

At this point I would like to be able to bring him up to date on how far left of field his notions are, but I want to do it gently and without confrontation.

I did ask him about his cholesterol; he said that his used to be way, way north of 200 and that now it is 175 (mine fluctuates between 108 and 118)). The gold-standard for atherosclerosis in my mind would be what LowCarbsIsDeadly mentions, an angiogram. Also, they have these new scans that can show us plaque; is this ionizing radiation (i.e. CT scan)? Is this something I can elect to do to see my own plaques? I can intuit that Dr. McDougall would probably say that there is no need to spend money on it since I am already on this WOE, doing the most that I can do.
Last edited by Roey on Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby barryoilbegone » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:24 am

His cholesterol is then still in the range for heart attacks and atherosclerosis: yours is below the typical safe figure of 150 that Dr Esselstyn dictates. Point him maybe in Dr Esselstyn's direction.

And perhaps leave it at that. It's heartening in one sense if you're trying to tolerate his attacks on you and McDougall in the name of his future health, but as I wrote before, seems you're really backing a wayward horse at the moment. Without trying to be harsh or unkind, is your friendship based on mutual respect and exploration? Seems to me he either tries to dominate you with this talk and little else, or its a "punch and judy" type mutual fight thing going on between you.

Sometimes a humble, calm and consistent response to showing others at times the McDougall way, rather than often debating it, can get through the most.
"All people are made alike - of bones and flesh and dinner. Only the dinners are different.”

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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby mapat » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:44 am

What I noticed in this thread is not so much 'to argue or not to argue', but what to do and how to deal with other people who are attacking what and how you eat. This may be because they sincerely care, and they truly believe what they are saying (just as we do) and that can make it even harder sometimes. Or even doctors who tell us to 'eat this/don't eat that'--

Not so much the arguing to change their minds, but how to deal with the stress, sometimes constant, of people telling us we have to eat things we believe are not healthy for us. One friend of mine gets this a lot from friends, and her doctors, even though she has lost almost 100 lbs, and her various number markers have improved tremendously in the 2 years she's been trying to eat this way.
She still gets stressed over people, and doctors, who keep telling her she's 'wrong' and has to do this or that.

I say just tell them "This works for me" ; keep doing what works for you, and leave it at that.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:08 am

He asked what I have against protein isolate, as in protein powder (which he says is imperative for me to take because I am deficient in it, and MS in his mind starts with a protein deficiency). I told him that it packs a wallop on your stomach to have all this protein all at once; his solution: put psyllium husk in the protein shake (Organe brand) for more fiber so that that the protein digests slower.

The real issue w/ protein isolates and animal protein is increased cancer risk from getting IGF-1 too high. But there is also significant risk of getting it too low i.e. bone loss, muscle loss, high blood sugars, all sorts of things. This becomes particularly important with older age groups i.e. say past 70 at a guess. Recent post, Dr Fuhrman said he thought 75 was lower limit for health but also has said for older folks a bit higher does seem beneficial. So that would be a key blood test for monitoring intake. There's more than one way to skin a, um, banana!
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Roey » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:17 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:The real issue w/ protein isolates and animal protein is increased cancer risk from getting IGF-1 too high. But there is also significant risk of getting it too low i.e. bone loss, muscle loss, high blood sugars, all sorts of things. This becomes particularly important with older age groups i.e. say past 70 at a guess. Recent post, Dr Fuhrman said he thought 75 was lower limit for health but also has said for older folks a bit higher does seem beneficial. So that would be a key blood test for monitoring intake. There's more than one way to skin a, um, banana!


Aye, so IGF-1 and also increased risk of osteoporosis/loss of bone density because of the way the body borrows calcium from bones to neutralize the acidity of the protein. I understand that Dr. Fuhrman 's teachings diverge slightly from Dr. McDougall's in that he bases his diet on an idealized maximized micronutrient and phytonutrient density instead of on starch--but did he ever advocate protein powder?
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:24 am

Fuhrman pretty strongly against protein powders. Very rare exception is use of plant ones (NOT soy) like pea or hemp for someone who is chronically ill and protein deficient. But always #1 priority is to find and heal cause of the deficiency; he is same with iron supplements First find and heal the cause, then if needed, temporary supplement to get back "in range". Bone loss only an issue in context of overall diet. If eating more protein but still overall veg heavy then most likely acidity not an issue at all. If eating crap and SAD then always will be too acid even with lowish protein!
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby bbq » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:32 am

Is Protein Bad to the Bone?
http://youtu.be/jj3c_7bW3Rw
The best available science on protein intake and osteoporosis risk.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-protein-bad-to-the-bone/

Does dairy leach calcium from the bones?
http://nutritionfacts.org/questions/does-dairy-leach-calcium-from-the-bones/
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby ryaneallen » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:03 pm

mapat wrote:What I noticed in this thread is not so much 'to argue or not to argue', but what to do and how to deal with other people who are attacking what and how you eat. This may be because they sincerely care, and they truly believe what they are saying (just as we do) and that can make it even harder sometimes. Or even doctors who tell us to 'eat this/don't eat that'--

Not so much the arguing to change their minds, but how to deal with the stress, sometimes constant, of people telling us we have to eat things we believe are not healthy for us. One friend of mine gets this a lot from friends, and her doctors, even though she has lost almost 100 lbs, and her various number markers have improved tremendously in the 2 years she's been trying to eat this way.
She still gets stressed over people, and doctors, who keep telling her she's 'wrong' and has to do this or that.

I say just tell them "This works for me" ; keep doing what works for you, and leave it at that.


One of the few things we have the freedom to choose in this life is what each one of us puts into his/her mouth.

As Gandhi said, "be the change you wish to see in this world." The more of us making the change, the more others will take notice. Teaching by example is the only way. Always has been, always will be.
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