Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

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Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Roey » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:43 am

Hello all,

I need help solidly refuting the arguments of a very close friend of mine, around my age, 36, who has lost a hundred pounds, lowered his cholesterol (to a "safe" 170 or so) and no longer considers himself type-II diabetic following twelve months of a very high-fat, very low-"carb" diet and intense running in the past twelve months. He tends to bring up diet quite often and rips on established notions:

- The Lipid Hypothesis,
- That the body does not "process" fat but just adds it right into our fat cells (i.e. that the fat we eat is the fat we wear)
- That dietary oil enters the bloodstream (I've told him about sludge blood and he doesn't believe it's from oil);
- That starches are satiating (I've suggested that he try eating two sweet potatoes, but he asserts that it's more satiating, and--subjectively--tasty, to eat lots of non-starchy vegetables with oil, instead).

He also establishes his own notions:

- That oil is satiating because it is difficult to overeat on it without feeling nauseous and distended, and that this bad feeling is the body's mechanism to limit our fat/oil consumption
- That combining starch and oil makes it easier to overeat and that it is only when starches are combined with oil or fat that we gain weight (perhaps he has a point because insulin signals the body to store fat, and simple sugars spike the bloodstream's insulin levels)
- That omega3 fatty acids can be had in abundance on high-fat diets, whereas I am somehow making myself deficient in following the MWLP. I told him that all plants have omega3. He asserts that it is not enough for healthy living. How we evolved to this point before the advent of refined oil, then, is beyond me.
- That studies showing the supposed cons of eating fat and oil do not distinguish between the types of saturated fat or the types of oil.
- That fat in the body is traceable to the food that we ate. This is something that Dr. McDougall has mentioned in one of his recent webinars, and I'd like to find where this was shown clinically.

He dismisses my argument when I tell him that type 2 diabetes happens because oil plugs up insulin receptors and instead blames it on the "carbs"; according to him, if there is nothing in the bloodstream like carbohydrates to give the body an insulin response, then the body doesn't store fat.

To bolster his argument that a paleo diet is more effective at a sustained weight loss than a low-fat, high-"carb" one, he offers this study: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.full. From what I've read so far, the "low-fat" diet is not whole-plant-based so it doesn't control for binging on simple sugars.

I have not had the time to look at this. And I understand that in health studies, one study showing a divergent result is not as important as many studies pointing to the same result. I was thinking to refute it, or to show him many studies (Nurses' Study, Oxford-China Study, etc.) that show the same trend over time. I've tried to show him Plant Positive's videos, but he balks at the presentation format.

This is before I even talk to him about the greater implications of eating animal products, like saturated fat (which he eats quite a bit of in the form of animal products and coconut oil, believing it's all good for the body), dietary cholesterol (again, not a problem in his book), IGF-1, TMAO, etc.

Background: I had been a western-pattern-diet vegan since age 15 and then McDougalling since 2012 pretty much on the MWLP because I had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and a good friend opened my eyes up to it. I also steer away from gluten, owing to the MS. I've strayed over the past fifteen months or so, going to restaurants (though always vegan) and getting laxer about eating other people's food made with oil, and I gained around twenty pounds to show for it. I've cleaned up my act and hopefully will see this paunch disappear again.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby viv » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:11 am

Roey, Roey, why, why?

Now there are many brilliant members here who will no doubt provide you with all the links and arguments you need to debate with your friend, however why are you even bothering? He's lost 100 lbs by following Paleo, well good for him! You follow McDougall and good for you! If you just like to be right or you just like to have a good ole argument well you are going to be arguing a long time. Personally I wouldn't put any energy into it.

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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:27 am

5 Gold Stars for Viv's response!
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby barryoilbegone » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:47 am

Echoes for viv too in a way: I doubt your friend is prepared to listen to any contradictory info at present. Most probably he has lost weight and increased his energy, and got away from approaching the type 2 diabetes for the moment because he's taken out some nasties from his diet - probably like the dairy and large amounts of refined sugars. As the body can be trained to turn to burning fats in exercise, if he's running vigorously, this might be where this is going, rather than stored in his cells long term.

If he's not running vigorously in future (and the time will come eventually when he can't) his health increases then may well not last. Let's hope he revises his beliefs before that happens. But in Dr McD's words this is very much someone right now who "wants to hear good news about [his] bad habits". There are many means to weight loss, but they are not all necessarily healthy, or sustainable.

If he ever comes to you with questions, I'd answer. As far as activism goes though, let him find out for himself that not everybody can do as he does, without having dire health consequences. In the meantime, can you run alongside him? Starch powered? ;)
"All people are made alike - of bones and flesh and dinner. Only the dinners are different.”

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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby kirkj » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:01 pm

I'm with Viv and Geoffery. I don't like how arguing makes me feel so I avoid it whenever possible.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby katgirl55 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:07 pm

Life is too short to argue with people over what they eat. Enjoy your friends' company and agree to disagree. Embrace the things you have in common, and ignore the things you don't.

“Give up being right. Instead radiate peace, harmony, love, and laughter from your heart.”

― Deepak Chopra
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Roey » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:25 pm

viv wrote:Roey, Roey, why, why?

Now there are many brilliant members here who will no doubt provide you with all the links and arguments you need to debate with your friend, however why are you even bothering? He's lost 100 lbs by following Paleo, well good for him! You follow McDougall and good for you! If you just like to be right or you just like to have a good ole argument well you are going to be arguing a long time. Personally I wouldn't put any energy into it.

Viv


Good point, thanks :-) And thank you everyone here who echoed this advice. So far I've just been nodding and smiling and not really giving my side of things, but I could only hear so much of this over the past year before I let out a statement in opposition as a knee-jerk reaction, and, well, the ball started rolling from there. You all are right, I'm just going to let him do his own thing. It's a shame though, because he's one of my closest core friends from the third grade, and I'm concerned that his Jim-Fixx-like mentality will lead him, his wife or kid to autoimmune diseases, a heart attack or worse. I don't have the heart to tell him, as barryoilbegone mentioned above, that the changes he's seen--as fantastic as they are--may be wholly temporary and contingent on him continuing to exercise.

And also, thanks to barryoilbegone for that excellent advice of running with him. That gets us away from arguing and more spending quality time together, and that's so much more important than who's right or wrong.

Thanks all,
- Roey
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby colonyofcells » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:50 pm

It is probably possible to reverse diabetes on exercise alone. Fat is a good fuel according to mainstream science. The main disadvantage of the paleo diet is eating high on the food chain which results in high amounts of pollution and radiation, so unlikely to lead to longevity. Dr Mcdougall has mentioned in a recent webinar that women who eat lots of animal products probably have highly toxic breast milk. Animal agriculture is also not sustainable and scientists are predicting wars over resources which can also lead to nuclear wars. Animal agriculture also causes global warming which scientists also predict will cause many wars. Animal factory farms are also a source of deadly bacteria and epidemics.
Last edited by colonyofcells on Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Franchesca_S. » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:30 pm

Ditto the comments of others to let it go. Sadly it is my exact experience that my friends completely reject my positive experience with this WOE. I just tell them, when you get interested I have a shelf full of books to lend. It saddens me that their experience will be a negative health event that is the wake up call but there is nothing that I can do to change them.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Thrasymachus » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:56 pm

Arguing with paleo followers is a big time sink and waste of time, if you spend time researching points to argue, don't spend that time with a paleo follower. You are better off spending the time trying to convince a more neutral person, paleo zealots are invested in the opposite direction: the more animal products the healthier the diet, the more fats the better especially if they are grass feed, animal based fats, and other such nonsense. Paleo followers work hard to be deliberately wrong on human history, evolution, anthropology, diet, nutrition, etc. by following scammers who lack relevant credentials and just plain make up truthy nonsense that appeals to pre-existing biases.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Jack Monzon » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:29 pm

I would bet my 401(k) that he's obese again this time next year.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby colonyofcells » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:19 am

My guess is paleo diet is not optimal since animal products and oil have 0 fiber and almost no micronutrients. Probably better to get most calories from sweet potato which has both fiber and some micronutrients.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Werner1950 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:37 am

I would suggest that if you do choose to debate him, start with the question of what makes for a good study. From what I can deduce, the paleo diet does not have good rigorous studies that back it up, whereas there are all kinds of studies that prove that the WFPB approach is the best way to go. I think Jeff N has some good articles on what makes for a good study.

If your friend is a fan of good objective logic, and has a scientific mind, he might listen. If he has a conspiratorial mindset who believes stuff like the moon landing was faked, then there's no hope.
"An ounce of evidence is worth a pound of presumption"
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby Roey » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:47 am

Werner1950 wrote:I would suggest that if you do choose to debate him

It usually starts with him mentioning it. He was at my place yesterday after I posted this message, in fact. Following everyone's advice here, I told him I'm not interested in discussing diet. But.. I still found myself getting an earful from him about how I need to take a pound of greens and eat it with coconut oil, because coconut oil supposedly does wonders for MS (actually it was more like him telling me to eat this, not eat that, etc.) Then he made me go my computer and look up a plant protein powder, saying I need to ward off a protein deficiency. Told him there is no such thing. He went to Google and searched for "protein deficiency", then yelled at me over how many links in the search results mention it. "See, we have PhDs and medical doctors as well."

So I tried to show him the Mic the Vegan Youtube segment on protein deficiency, and as soon as he saw "Mic the Vegan", he jumps back to the open Amazon.com tab showing the protein powder's ingredients and yells at me "hey look, VEGAN, VEGANNN..."; then, citing extreme disinterest, refused to actually watch the video. Yesterday turned into an outright bullying session, and I am still jarred from it (especially after he started calling veganism "retarded") . Asked me why it's been a month of me saying I've cleaned up my eating, and yet I'm somehow fatter than where I was a month ago--which I don't think is necessarily true, and because perhaps the weight loss is not yet visually obvious, it gives me reason to doubt myself--he claimed that my weight loss came from me starving myself. It's probably true to some extent; I did have bouts of going to sleep hungry. It takes me back to high school when I faced this kind of criticism every day for my choices. Ordinarily, I hadn't gotten pushback from him. Until last year, when he started on this paleo kick.

Werner1950 wrote:From what I can deduce, the paleo diet does not have good rigorous studies that back it up

He brings these one-off studies like the one I posted above as "proof" that eating a high-fat diet is good for you (his words). According to him, the reason there is not much data yet is because the Government has promulgated bad low-fat food policy over the past fifty years. There is no arguing with this person; in his mind he is always right.

Werner1950 wrote:whereas there are all kinds of studies that prove that the WFPB approach is the best way to go. I think Jeff N has some good articles on what makes for a good study. If your friend is a fan of good objective logic, and has a scientific mind, he might listen. If he has a conspiratorial mindset who believes stuff like the moon landing was faked, then there's no hope.

He refuses to look at the videos I show him, whether it be Mic the Vegan, Plant Positive, Dr. Greger, etc. If I tell him about actual studies, he dismisses them on the grounds that they are not blinded, rely too heavily on self-reported survey results, or that they do not differentiate between the types of fat in a diet. Sitting beside me, he gesticulates wildly at the computer monitor, invading my personal space, and claims that everyone on my side is just some charlatan trying to make money off of their viewers' ignorance. As I gather from what others have mentioned above, there is nothing I can say that will cause him to re-evaluate his commitment to his ideology.

I'm going to let things cool down over the next few days. It's not as if I can or want to dissociate myself from him; he's one of my closest friends and I'm close with his family, my parents are good friends with his wife's family, etc. But what happened yesterday still makes me shudder.
Last edited by Roey on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Refuting my friend's inane pro-paleo arguments

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:55 am

Roey, maybe not appropriate to say this but I am going to anyway because I think it so important. From what you just posted above, this person does not sound like a friend but rather a burden. Why waste your time hanging out with someone who is hostile and abusive? Don't fight or "tell him off", just quietly find other ways to spend your time and be busy/previous engagement, whenever he calls.

Diet is NOT only what you put in your mouth. At the least as important if not more so is what you put into your mind!
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