What Ultrarunners Want

[roundcoconut]

Oh, but I REALLY enjoyed that post.

Yeah, people are REALLY invested at times, in what they've been told about exercise. I mean, even the word "exercise" assumes that we are these great civilized humans, and assumes that sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day is OBVIOUSLY perfectly OK, and sitting on a couch for three more hours of every day is perfectly "normal".

So, here we are and we've got all these scientists at all these universities telling us that we should exercise for maybe 30 minutes, three to five times a week, and uh, the rest of the time, it's presumed to be perfectly fine to chat on our phones and watch our televisions and hang out in our kitchens concocting cupcakes, just like Paula Deen.

And just like anything, people can be kinda threatened by even READING about people who do things very, very differently.

I mean, I think that runners probably look at sedentary vegans and say, "Wow, you probably have no idea what you're DOING to your body!" Because there are lots of sedentary vegans who think, "Hey, I walk five days a week, and that's pretty healthy in the scheme of things".

And as a whole foods person, I sometimes listen to these meat-eating, oil-glugging runners and say, "Wow, you have probably have no idea what you're DOING to your body!" And I think these runners probably think, "Hey, I eat chicken breasts, and use olive oil and I'm not overweight or anything, and that's pretty healthy in the scheme of things".

Well, my point really is, that less athletic people who focus more on NUTRITIONAL excellence, sometimes still fall into that pattern about liking good news about their bad habits. Like, whole foods people might just OVER-enjoy thinking about how those extreme athletes are going to die prematurely, whether that's an exaggerated prognosis or not.

Ha. Well, I'm not sure that's coherent, but those're my thoughts!

[Skip]

Both science and observation would indicate that ultra anything is not the best thing for longevity. That said, not everyone's goal is longevity. Perhaps life is much more exciting if you row across an ocean, race in the Tour de France or run 100k. If those sort of things appeal enough to a person I'm in no position and of no mind to criticize them or tell them how to live their lives. That crocodile hunter guy died pretty young and left a family behind but according to his wife, he lived life to the fullest. Maybe having a strong a passion for something (even if it places you in some peril) is better than tottering your way to 100.

As for looks and health, plenty of overweight people look healthy. Plenty of lean, low body fat people look older than their years. I don't come to any health conclusions from that.

Totally agree. If one looked at the training of Michael Phelps or Katy Ledecky, one might conclude that those people are crazy doing all that training and that volume of exercise was bad for their health. Again, it's a matter of goal setting and living out your dreams in life....

[roundcoconut]

Both science and observation would indicate that ultra anything is not the best thing for longevity.

I'm not so sure we can categorically dismiss the idea that anything considered extreme in 2016 America, is bad for health.

I mean, to state the obvious: It is clear to most of us here, that eating an "extremely" natural and unprocessed fare of plant foods IS what's best for longevity.

It's just that everything that is considered the norm in 2016 America is so utterly out of whack, that y'gotta wonder: Maybe we really should be doing the EXTREME opposite of what the heart-disease-and-diabetes crowd is doing.

As for the actual idea of people who go on three to four hour training runs on a regular basis, I could make kind of a weird zoo-based naturalistic argument, so here goes:

We have pretty solid evidence that animals in captivity have much shorter lifespans than animals that live out their lifespan in the wild. Whether this is true in part because zoos are horrible for animals emotionally (probably the case) and also true in part because zoos are horrible for animals nutritionally (probably also the case), I would nevertheless think it plausible that some of the problem lies in the fact that animals that travel many miles each day in their natural habitat are severely restricted from doing so while in captivity.

And if you extrapolate that out to human beings, you could at least consider the idea that Homo sapiens in many of our ancestral ways of living actually travelled many, many miles each day, foraging for food, migrating to different areas in search of better vegetation and/or more plentiful food sources, searching for drinkable water, etc. I can only imagine that many Homo sapiens spent ten to twelve hours each day in some type of work and traveling, with far more during some seasons, and far less during others.

And so, why wouldn't it be possible that the humans putting in those kindsa miles, would increase their longevity as compared to people who only get up off the couch for an hour each day?

I know we don't have good ways of being sure, but I do think it's very possible that the lung capacity, and the leg speed and the bone strength that long-distance runners have, is GOOD for human health. Good for both quantity and quality of life.

The test subjects we have in modern society -- because we DO have plenty of people in society who've been running marathons and such for decades -- really show us a somewhat mixed bag, because sometimes they really do get cancer and heart attacks just like their other oil-glugging friends. You can't look at these people and say, "They're all still in extremely good health!", because they're not.

Still, if I had to guess whether Scott Jurek or me is in better health (quality of life) or going to live longer (longevity), I would bet Scott Jurek, no matter what.

Doesn't the Dr Greger video on resting pulse, also give scientific weight to the idea that Scott Jurek might be the better bet, too? I don't think it's a given truth, that just because Jeff Novick or Dr McDougall aren't enthusiastic about ultra-distances, that the body of evidence will support them, as we begin to search for optimal activity patterns for humans.

I dunno. It just seems so possible that 12-14 hours of activity each day is what we're designed for, and YES, some days of gut-puking grinding extreme-milers each year.

[dailycarbs]

roundcoconut,

There's no reason to believe that ultra running (or any other ultra exercise) would increase longevity. In fact the opposite is more likely.

While we all know that exercise is healthy, some research has begun to raise questions about whether it’s possible to overdo a good thing. A few studies have found that long-time endurance athletes can have a heightened risk for abnormal heartbeats, and even for scarring of the heart muscle. Likewise, experiments with lab animals have found possible links between prolonged, extremely strenuous running and undesirable changes in the structure and function of the heart.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/1 ... eart/?_r=0

And I suspect that in time, more reasons will be found as to why ultra exercise is harmful to the human body. I admit however, that this is a hunch and offer no proof for my statement.

Observationally, we simply don't see a correlation between extreme exercise and longevity. Long lived people tend not to be ultra athletes and ultra athletes don't tend to be especially long lived. Long lived populations tend to eat traditional diets composed primarily plant foods in controlled amounts (due to religious fasting, social norms, or privation), live in cultures that promote strong social and familial ties, and move their bodies by walking and doing daily chores.

The idea of an ultra runner vs a couch potoato who does a limited amount of exercise each day and then plops back on the couch is a false dichotomy. Many people are way more active throughout the day than that. My wife and I are two and I know many more. In fact, people who tent to exercise tend to be active in other ways, it has been my experience. It would make sense. Eating well, exercising, keeping your weight down in the normal bmi range...these are positive, energy infusing acts that tend to promote more positive activity.

[hazelrah]

Wow, haters gotta hate, or in this case, haters gotta hijack. I should have just stayed off the grid and kept riding 11,000ft mtn passes.

The point of this thread was to note what I thought would be interesting to a starchivore, that at mile 86 the only food we ran out of was a simple starch, the humble potato. They weren't clamoring for the sports stuff or junk, they wanted potatoes and soup.

I thought it might be of interest. Silly me. Apparently ranting against endurance sports and the people who pursue them is of far more interest. The characterization of ultra athletes does not reflect the many great people I've met along the way.

Sorry to have offended, but I've got a 100 mile MTB race in two weeks I need to train for. It's important since I failed to make the time cut at the LT100. Thought there might be a little support around here. How foolish of me.

Yeah it's funny, I was listening to the Rich Roll podcast while reading this and he said something like, "there's nothing more humbling than distance running,..." That resonates with me. It was disorienting to read all these derisive comments. I guess I might have known that some people just go through life without needing the exhilaration of attempting something that seems unattainable. I just didn't know they could be so arrogant about it.

Keep on riding vegpedlr. From my marathoning days, I can assure you that your work at the aid station is well appreciated.

Mark

[GeoffreyLevens]

It was disorienting to read all these derisive comments. I guess I might have known that some people just go through life without needing the exhilaration of attempting something that seems unattainable. I just didn't know they could be so arrogant about it.
Mark

[Thrasymachus]

Here is a great post from Jeff Novick, RE: Exercise, Health & You: How Much Is Enough?: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43482

You are right, that was a great threat with lots of excellent info about the perils of too much exercise. It seems from the body of evidence not exercising is better than over exercising which is definitely the box that ultra runners fall under, a few excerpts:

http://www.msma.org/docs/communications ... dicine.pdf

Results
Male marathon runners (n = 50) as compared with sedentary male controls (n = 23) had increased total plaque volume (200 vs. 126 mm3, p < 0.01), calcified plaque volume (84 vs. 44 mm3, p < 0.0001), and non-calcified plaque volume (116 vs. 82 mm3, p = 0.04). Lesion area and length, number of lesions per subject, and diameter stenosis did not reach statistical significance.

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/pb ... 89_8_3.pdf

... But there is clear evidence of an increase in cardiovascular deaths in heart attack survivors who exercise to excess, according to a new study published in Mayo Clinic Proceedings.

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/ar ... 25-6196(14)00638-7/fulltext

“Cardiac overuse injury” is the term we have suggested for this increasingly common consequence of the “more exercise is better” strategy.4, 10 Many seasoned endurance athletes have experience with orthopedic overuse injuries such as plantar fasciitis, Achilles tendonitis, shin splints, and patellar chondromalacia. However, cardiac overuse injury may be associated with more ominous outcomes, including threatening cardiac arrhythmias, accelerated coronary plaque formation, premature aging of the heart, myocardial fibrosis, plaque rupture and acute coronary thrombosis, and even sudden cardiac death.11

And it is not just the heart that cannot take it, here is a Google Image search for: feet after ultra-marathon:
https://www.google.com/search?q=feet+af ... 32&bih=651

@vgpedlr:
I don't really think you can build conclusions off giving stuff away for free. I am not a cyclist in the amateur or Fred sense, but as I understand it few recreational cyclists will eat a proper meal even for shorter rides by stopping to sit and eat at a restaurant/etc. no matter how hungry they are and instead use drink powders, gels because it is not pro-like to refuse to wear lycra, to stop to eat, etc. I doubt the ultra marathon community is much different, so when they came across you at mile eighty whate-ever they will already sick and unsatisfied with meal replacements, powerbars, other nonsense and already had built such a phenomenal hunger that they were sick of half measures. Too often on this forum people build wrong conclusions on the false hope from giving stuff away, as if giving free food is hard. It is kind of like if I give away $10 bills and concluded that those receiving them liked me because they were kind afterwards. You yourself lament many times in this forum that this community seems far more in the paleo camp. You could have gave away paleo friendly soups and arrived at the opposite anecdotal conclusions

You may want to focus on how "awesome" they are according to you, but marathoners, especially ultra runners have a damaging lifestyle that arguably should be as frowned upon as bulimia, anorexia, self maiming, etc. are maligned socially. That will never happen since the mainstream seems to believe in a myth that exercise can clear arteries when as you can see from above, the level of excessive exercise they commit to contributes to stressing arteries and increases cardiovascular risk.

@petero:
Here is what the guy who rowed across the Pacific looked like before he started off, he still did not look good for his age:
https://plus.google.com/+DentalHealthGr ... tCdzhb2zx1

And it was not a one-off thing he was marathoner before and that trek by kayak took over 7 months with lots of excessive exercise and way too much constant exposure to the sun and other elements. He probably significantly decreased his lifespan during those 7 months and his marathon activities.

[GeoffreyLevens]

Here is what the guy who rowed across the Pacific looked like before he started off, he still did not look good for his age:
https://plus.google.com/+DentalHealthGr ... tCdzhb2zx1

And it was not a one-off thing he was marathoner before and that trek by kayak took over 7 months with lots of excessive exercise and way too much constant exposure to the sun and other elements. He probably significantly decreased his lifespan during those 7 months and his marathon activities.

Much depends on whether you want to live as long as possible or enjoy the time you do have as much as possible. Personal choice! It this guy did not do those things he would maybe live longer but maybe not as he might well be quite depressed and bored. Personal choice!

[Thrasymachus]

Personal choice is just nonsense to justify the status quo of society. People operate in large groups, in nations under over arching social structures that impose social forces over them that they have no personal control over. I would bet you $1000 if I could, that if I met John Beeden who kayaked across the Pacific or any ultra runner and I told them they were shortening their lives by exercising that they would argue the opposite position.

There is a reason why Jeff Novick's potentially life changing information is buried on this forum where almost no-one will see it, and why Dr. McDougall's Youtube channel is largely ignored despite being Youtube's best health resource, while morons control the FM radio waves, while Dr. Oz is the arguably the most popular health show on television, etc. Certain info is buried for good reasons, especially since it could hurt powerful interests. Personal choice has nothing to do with it, most people have too little self discipline to even imagine that personal choice is an option for them: they will take the easiest path. The extreme athletes have the ability to endure hardship and discipline, but they are a bit like the "work to live" workaholics who are scared of life outside of work.

[GeoffreyLevens]

Personal choice is just nonsense to justify the status quo of society. People operate in large groups, in nations under over arching social structures that impose social forces over them that they have no personal control over.

Of course there are a lot of social forces we have no control over! Some people however to have the illusion of doing something for themselves that they want to do. Some people crave adventure. I guess you aren't one of them and I have no problem with that.

[GeoffreyLevens]

Thrasymachus, I agre 110% or more that most people do not seem to have much interest in self-examination or introspection. I find it interesting though how this thread morphed from being about diet/health to being really about overall philosophy of life, why we are here in the first place, at least that seems an underlying part of it.

[vgpedlr]

I find it interesting though how this thread morphed from being about diet/health to being really about overall philosophy of life, why we are here in the first place, at least that seems an underlying part of it.

This thread was started with the simple observation that I thought McDougallers would appreciate: That after pushing for so long, ultra runners wanted to go back to the basics, the humble potato. Despite the popularity of paleo/LCHF, nobody was asking for MCT oil, coconut whatever, or grass fed anything.

What it morphed into was criticism of endurance athletes and those who admire them.

Ultra endurance was not the point.

POTATOES were the point.

[Ltldogg]

Ultra endurance was not the point.

POTATOES were the point.

Then perhaps POTATOES should have been in the Subject!?!

[GeoffreyLevens]

Ultra endurance was not the point.

POTATOES were the point.

Then perhaps POTATOES should have been in the Subject!?!

They were! Though not spelled out, POTATOES are in fact, what Ultrarunners Want!

[Ltldogg]

They were! Though not spelled out, POTATOES are in fact, what Ultrarunners Want!

Actually, they are not. The subject of this thread is "What Ultrarunners Want"; nothing about POTATOES