Pythagoras

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: Pythagoras

Postby petero » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:43 pm

Skip wrote:As Tuttle lays out in his book, our herding culture and commodification of animals has created many conflicts when competing for scarce resources. In our past (and in some cases present), cattle was one of those scarce resources. Plant based eating is such a great way to conserve so many constrained resources that can and will lead to conflicts. Water shortages, food shortages, deforestation, global warming ,etc...


Oh, definitely.

Skip wrote:Many violent acts to happen because people are mentally unbalanced. Eating plant based helps to bring that mental balance and clarity back as opposed to the current norm of antidepressant drug use.


As an agent of systemic violence, I was thinking about this off and on today. It seems to me that there's more than one kind of violence. There's this kind of personal, "primitive" violence that we all have the capacity for, and the solution/mitigation of would be some way to channel it or counterbalance it with other psychological forces. I would say that in some situations this kind of violence is even a right, as when other people are engaging in personal or systemic violence against you.

But there is also systemic violence, and worst of all a kind of modern "schizoid" violence--the violence of pushing a button to kill people with drones or modern "painless" ways of slaughtering animals. The dialectic of Temple Grandin is the absolute horror of mass impersonal slaughter, like a Nazi death camp or that Star Trek episode where two sides are fighting a way with computer-randomized casualty lotteries. (Original series FTW!) It is naturally mentally unbalanced. Wars should only be fought with fists, sticks and stones, not modern weapons.

In any case, I stand with Pythagoras and don't eat anything that has the breath of life. (edit: and since his time, a veg*n diet has always been known to be healthy, too)
It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame. -- Marie-Louise von Franz
User avatar
petero
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:45 am
Location: Gatlinburg, TN

Re: Pythagoras

Postby Skip » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:01 pm

petero wrote:In any case, I stand with Pythagoras and don't eat anything that has the breath of life.


Amen :D
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
User avatar
Skip
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby dstewart » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:21 pm

The reason you don't hear anyone suggesting that as a solution is that it's not a solution.

Plant eaters go to war too. Starch-based diets of societies all over the world have war. The Japanese ate virtually no meat until the 1960s. Didn't stop them from starting wars throughout Asia in the first half of the 20th century.

There are Buddhist terrorists.

It's not a solution to war, or to murder.
dstewart
 
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: Pythagoras

Postby Skip » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:02 am

dstewart wrote:The reason you don't hear anyone suggesting that as a solution is that it's not a solution.

Plant eaters go to war too. Starch-based diets of societies all over the world have war. The Japanese ate virtually no meat until the 1960s. Didn't stop them from starting wars throughout Asia in the first half of the 20th century.

There are Buddhist terrorists.

It's not a solution to war, or to murder.


What is your solution to war, or to murder?
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
User avatar
Skip
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby calvin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:45 am

Skip wrote:What is your solution to war, or to murder?
What is your problem with war and murder? Just interested.
calvin
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:39 am
Location: San Fernando Valley

Re: Pythagoras

Postby f1jim » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:53 am

The only real solution would be to remove humans from the equation. Not a likely proposition. Human nature tends to rule the day.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Pythagoras

Postby Skip » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:32 am

calvin wrote:
Skip wrote:What is your solution to war, or to murder?
What is your problem with war and murder? Just interested.


Is this a serious question or are you kidding around? If you are serious, I believe that all life is a precious gift. How would you like it if you were needlessly murdered? Would you have a problem with that?

f1jim wrote:The only real solution would be to remove humans from the equation. Not a likely proposition. Human nature tends to rule the day.
f1jim


When we humans cooperate and collaborate with one another, great things happen. Without this, we wouldn't have progressed or flourished at all. We have a dark side of jealousy, hate, fear and greed but I don't believe that this is our normal state. As Will Tuttle points out in "The World Peace Diet (Eating for Spiritual Health and Social Harmony), we have been raised in a "herding culture" which supports the cruelty to animals and fosters war.

I would strongly suggest that everyone read "The World Peace Diet" by Will Tuttle
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
User avatar
Skip
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby f1jim » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:06 am

I am optimistic too, but the reality of life says we haven't really progressed much in that regard. Step back century after century and the last one was probably the most brutal of all with more millions killed than ever. I guess you can look at progress in chunks the size of your choosing. 10 years 25 years 100 years 100 years. All we really generally do is look within our own lifetime and notice what we want to see. It's optimistic to see the progress but it's reality to see the steps backward too. I like to look within and see progress and really that is the first and best step. Can we be objective about our selves? There has never been a time period free from war. Even now there are dozens of them going on around us. When has it been different? Is it better today than in the past?
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Pythagoras

Postby patty » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:13 am

The problem isn't conflict, as it is how we respond to it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know sustainability‎ is taking care of the planet you and others reside on. And doing that it is knowing the other when in conflict is just a projection of a old style belief of scarcity. It is a inside job to be the change you want to see. Once someone understands they can live healthy and be satiated on a starch based diet they become a game changer, because they are no longer reacting to the false self of scarcity. Food and money are no longer like musical chairs there is enough for everybody. Addiction is a thinking disease, it tells the addict they don't have a dis ease. Starch allows the addict to think through the situation where they respond vs. react. Not only because of the satiety of starch but the because of the availability. They are no longer a doormat to a projection of a false sense of self, they make the leap into the solution, the ordinary becomes extraordinary. Who would have thought a mosquito would create such havoc for not only yourself by the offspring you or the other are carrying? Life is celebration not propagation. It is inside out.

Aloha, patty

A interesting article:
Norway Proves That Treating Prison Inmates As Human Beings Actually Works http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nor ... ?section=&
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby calvin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:53 pm

Skip wrote:
calvin wrote:What is your problem with war and murder? Just interested.
Is this a serious question or are you kidding around? If you are serious, I believe that all life is a precious gift. How would you like it if you were needlessly murdered? Would you have a problem with that?

I like the idea of "serenely accepting things I cannot change, exercising the courage to change the things I can, and the attaining the wisdom to know the difference." Not an exact quote from Reinhold Niebuhr.

So, No, I'm not serious about war and murder as problems, nor about peoples' emotional reactions to both, but I am sincere about understanding both.

As you go through life,
Or so I've been told.
Keep your eye upon the donut
And not upon the hole.


I would suggest that war and murder are not problems. War and murder are the hole. What is the donut? What do war and murder have in common? They are not problems. But they Are symptoms of a problem. The problem is humans in pain. A common denominator among suicide survivors when asked "Why suicide?" is "Suicide was the only way to stop the pain."

So I throw your question back at you. Are you seriously concerned about things so out of your control? I'm not saying you shouldn't be but, if so, is that concern an example of right action? And if not, what is right action when it comes to stuff which is out of our control? Is sitting around serenely in the lotus pose constructive? Is meditating on yin/yang constructive?

Assuming hypothetically that I were aware after being unnecessarily (or necessarily for that matter - is there such a thing as necessary murder? isn't that called justifiable homocide?) murdered, I dare say, even without having a crystal ball, that I would be very hurt, not of course that my postmortem feelings on the matter would, um, matter; i guess ideally i would have to resort to that same serenity that sounded SO comforting to me in life.

On another side of the coin, maybe war and murder are not symptoms of pain, but of life in the grander scheme of things, of Mother Nature if one insists on anthropomorphizing, of Mother Nature abhorring a vacuum, a vacuum of healthy humans and an excess of unhealthy ones and so Mother Nature agreeing with Ebeneezer Scrooge that "reduction of the excess population" is appropriate, even though a certain amount of collateral damage is involved. Just food for thought. Don't kid around with Mother Nature. I'm not kidding around with her or with you. I'm just thinking out loud.

Donner Party cannibalism. Was it murder for me to eat my frozen traveling companion in order for me to live? No, because I had a good reason, an ethical reason, a natural reason, a frugal reason (didn't want him to go to waste), a reason people could feel good about. But was that like the difference between a lie of COmmission and a lie of Omission. I didn't Murder my friend; I just waited for him to die before I ate. Now I am kind of kidding around there but these are emotional topics. Abortion is only murder if you feel bad about abortion; but if you feel good about it, it is about quality of life. Electrons display behavior that can be explained by assuming electrons are particles. Electrons display behavior that can be explained by assuming electrons are waves. Electrons can not be both particle and wave. Electrons are neither particle nor wave. They're just electrons. They multitask.


Now someone is going to quote this whole overlong post in order to write a response. Puhlleeze don't do that because it causes so much unnecessary and distracting scrolling. Not that responses are not welcome. Well, the op will be the judge of that. :D
calvin
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:39 am
Location: San Fernando Valley

Re: Pythagoras

Postby Skip » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:18 pm

calvin wrote:I like the idea of "serenely accepting things I cannot change, exercising the courage to change the things I can, and the attaining the wisdom to know the difference."


You can change the food that you eat and this is a point Pythagoras makes. You don't have to participate in the slaughter of animals for food.

calvin wrote:The problem is humans in pain.


Does eating animals for food cause pain? Yes it causes lots of pain in a variety of ways.

calvin wrote:So I throw your question back at you. Are you seriously concerned about things so out of your control?


Not eating animals is not out of my control.

Do you agree with Pythagoras or not?
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
User avatar
Skip
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby petero » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:55 pm

Skip wrote:When we humans cooperate and collaborate with one another, great things happen. Without this, we wouldn't have progressed or flourished at all. We have a dark side of jealousy, hate, fear and greed but I don't believe that this is our normal state.


Amen. :)
It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame. -- Marie-Louise von Franz
User avatar
petero
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:45 am
Location: Gatlinburg, TN

Re: Pythagoras

Postby f1jim » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:52 pm

"When" is a key component of the equation. Also an important addition would be the word "all" in your sentence right after the word "When".:

"When all we humans cooperate and collaborate with one another, great things happen."

That's how I would frame it. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. As I mentioned earlier, if history is our guide we may not be making much progress there. But I am an optimist so I too wait for that fateful day.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Pythagoras

Postby Skip » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:10 am

Agree, adding "all" is a key as well as "when". But all you really need is "love".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ze_e4R9QY
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
User avatar
Skip
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Pythagoras

Postby patty » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:07 am

I love this from Elisabet Sathouris "Earth Dance" re: language...

Part of our evolving scientific worldview, as we said, is recognizing the validity and importance of other species’ worldviews, expanding our own by incorporating theirs. It is equally important for us to recognize the validity and importance of different human worldviews, expanding our own in so doing. Every human culture that has its own language and customs has ways of seeing the world that are unique, though any human individual can learn any human culture and language. We can thus communicate across languages and share cultural experience in ways that enrich us all.

Today’s dominant scientific worldview evolved in European languages with common roots and close relationships. These languages happen to be structured in a way that forces us, in talking or writing about our world, to think and speak of it in terms of ‘thing-nouns’ and ‘action-verbs.’ This language structure— taken for granted in English and other Indo-European languages— gives us a worldview, as soon as we begin speaking as children, in which we actually see the world as made of separate things that stay still (nouns) or move or are moved in relation to one another (verbs). The reasoning, the logic, and the mathematics of scientists are all based on this way of dividing up the world.

It can come as a great surprise to us that all people do not see the world in this way, and that this is related to language structures. Some human languages do not make our kind of distinction between nouns and verbs. Rather, the world is seen through certain languages as a pattern of interwoven processes in time, not as a pattern of separate things in space. Speakers of Hopi or Nootka, for example— both North American indigenous languages— cannot imagine things without their motion, change, aging, or other aspects of coming into and out of being. Instead of saying, for example, “The light shines,” or “The water falls,” they have singleword expressions that do not separate the light from its shining or the water from its falling. In such process languages, people do not think of time as made up of a series of ‘things’ called seconds, minutes, and hours. They see time as the change in things, which is more the way physicists now understand time.

These are only a very few examples of the way in which a language can determine how we see our world, yet they are enough to make us think about what the scientific worldview might be like if it had been developed in a very different set of languages. Einstein once suggested to Benjamin Lee Whorf, who studied and wrote about these language differences, that it might be easier to describe the discoveries of modern physics in the Hopi language than in English. In Hopi we would not face the contradictions of a world made at once of particle-things and wave-actions, of matter-things and energy-actions, never having separated things from actions in the first place.

Process-language cultures are better suited to organic than mechanical worldviews. Perhaps such cultures did not develop mechanical technologies because machinery is necessarily conceived and built as the interactions of separate and, insofar as possible, unchanging parts. As it happened, science developed most fully in European-language cultures along with machinery, becoming closely associated with machinery, as we will see in greater detail shortly.

Anthropology and linguistics, the sciences of human cultures and languages, are relatively new parts of science as a whole, but they have taught us that human experience is very varied and rich. They have made us realize that the scientific worldview, which was developed mainly in industrializing western countries, is based on and represents only a limited part of human experience. Many scientists, especially physicists and physicians, have begun to use ideas and practices from eastern worldviews to enrich their western science, while western science has become an important part of eastern life, especially in Japan and China.

Sahtouris, Elisabet (2012-02-02). EarthDance: Living Systems in Evolution (Kindle Locations 2671-2682). . Kindle Edition.


Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.