Weight: Mental Health vs Physical Health?

[Lesliec1]

I almost wonder if we have trolls who have taken up shop.

I believe you are correct. It's just going to happen. They come back every so often as different users because they are paid to (which is extra pathetic 'cus they're not paid well.) Hope it gets dealt with sooner than later.

[roundcoconut]

Oh yes, Katgirl, you nailed it: the people who like to bait arguments around here! There was a guy a couple years ago who was kinda douchey. I can't quite figure it, why or what drives people.

In my mind I keep going to the idea of ganging up on people and bullying people, and how weird that one is. Like, being deaf or hard of hearing was once stigmatized (more?), and it didn't make them start hearing again, just made for deaf and HOH people having extra layers of difficulties.

Also, learning disabilities and dyslexia were often heavily stigmatized, where people were believed to be less intelligent and were encouraged to believe they were less intelligent. And I don't think it made people less dyslexic or less learning disabled, but just made their lives harder emotionally, and more limited in terms of what was open to them, because schools couldn't or wouldn't accommodate that; people didn't know how to, or didn't want to understand that.

So then you come to size and/or food addictions, and it just seems like when weight and health start to snowball together (health declines, weight goes up, health declines a little more, weight goes up a little more), you can treat someone like they're not a real and valuable human being, and it doesn't stop the snowball one bit -- just makes things desolate on an emotional level, and closes down options for who you can trust and where you can be safe.

Oh! And it seems the whole stigma thing as "discouragement" didn't work out well for sexuality. Didn't make people less gay, just made people more oppressed. Brilliant use of unintended consequences.

So there are my (final?) thoughts on what the stigma camp hasn't yet made sense of. Done, and done.

Side note, but I HAVE started adding particularly fatphobic posters to the "Add foe" list, when you click on their username. It winds up that when they post something in a thread, their particular contribution is reduced to, "So-and-so is on your ignore list. Click here if you would like to see the full post." So, in case you just don't love interacting with the crazies of the world (except at work, everyone has to deal with them at work), you can do the same!

[OneLeggedPig]

I think the “Fat Acceptance” movement is a reaction to the clash we have in society between our toxic food environment, which makes it harder for people to be healthy including a healthy weight, and the simultaneous and contradictory shaming that people who are overweight experience from various sources.

It must be annoying- society makes you fat and then shames you for it. Fat Acceptance is understandable as a reaction to that. But of course that doesn’t make it a good idea- the movement normalises obesity and denies the serious health issues. And its proponents suggest that being a BMI in the healthy range is just not possible for lots of people, which is not true.

I don’t think we should have Fat Acceptance. But we shouldn’t haves haming either. People should be equipped with the right information to make the changes they need for their health (three cheers for Dr McDougall, Jeff Novick and co), and encouraged to make those improvements. They should be advised clearly on the risks of being obese and how to resolve it.
BUT no one should have to wait to feel good about themselves in the meantime.

[f1jim]

This is the best post I have seen on the topic and OneLeggedPig has it nailed. Fat acceptance is a reaction response.
We do have the responsible answer to obesity right here in our hands and we need to be sharing it, not fighting over petty details.
Most importantly, we need to start with ourselves. No one is going to end our weight issues for us. It's strictly our responsibility. We can bemoan the attitudes of individuals all the way up to society at large but the buck stops with ourselves. We have to work toward implementing the proper diet for ourselves and our family. We have to spread the word that the answer is at the end of our fork. We also have to not use what we see as others attitudes as excuses to NOT make the changes in our lives.
To many people use "other peoples cruelty" as the excuse for not making progress. We can do that but how many years are we going to waste while not making the needed changes? How many decades are going to pass before we move forward and away from obesity.
The answer is clear. The solution is at our fingertips. We can apply the proper solution or spend our lives blaming the cruelty of others for our lack of success. This program isn't easy but it is simple. Follow it and it will work. It works if your family resents it. It works if your co-workers think you are nuts. It works if skinny people look down on you. It works if heavy people are jealous. The key is it works for EVERYONE that implements it. Having implemented it all the repression we may have felt over our weight disappears along with the pounds. No one ever taunts or smirks at the trim , healthy person. Mental health MUST follow physical health on this issue. We can have endless discussions about why people act a certain way or we can make it irrelevant in our lives. ALL OF US have that choice.
f1jim

[Amoux]

We do have the responsible answer to obesity right here in our hands and we need to be sharing it, not fighting over petty details.
Most importantly, we need to start with ourselves. No one is going to end our weight issues for us. It's strictly our responsibility. We can bemoan the attitudes of individuals all the way up to society at large but the buck stops with ourselves. We have to work toward implementing the proper diet for ourselves and our family. We have to spread the word that the answer is at the end of our fork. We also have to not use what we see as others attitudes as excuses to NOT make the changes in our lives.
To many people use "other peoples cruelty" as the excuse for not making progress. We can do that but how many years are we going to waste while not making the needed changes? How many decades are going to pass before we move forward and away from obesity.
f1jim

Couldn't agree more.

For what it's worth, I have found that people who are demotivated because of fat-shaming and general negativity towards their body size can sometimes become resistant to the very idea of losing weight - it's a kind of push-back position that really makes no sense - but then neither does the fat-shaming that may have triggered it. And of course denial happens, too.

But - and this is the first thing I work on with clients - if people cannot make peace with where they are, the whole enterprise of healthy weight management is likely to be unsuccessful long-term. And people don't like this idea of making peace with where they are, because they think that means accepting that they will always be like that - I am at pains to explain it doesn't - it's really about taking responsibility for their current size, accepting that they ate the food, didn't exercise or whatever they think contributed to it - as a prelude to making changes. I am at pains to point out to them that they have been systematically misinformed by Big Food over the years, which is not their fault, but now that they know better - they can do better. And generally they do. But if there is no acceptance that 'it is what it is, nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to eat stuff I didn't want to eat' - it's as though the person is stuck. As though they have to stay stuck, to justify being overweight currently by staying overweight for ever. Fat shaming really doesn't help people to take responsibility, I find. And without that acceptance - forward progress may be sporadic and yo-yo, in my experience.

[patty]

I love that quote ""Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our chance to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

Viktor E Frankl

And that is actually what Satiety from Being Starch Based allows, the ability to respond vs react. I love the fact Dr McDougall and Jeff Novick share we can eat and be healthy on $3 or $4 dollars a day. The scarcity buck stops with each of us where we live in a cooperative state vs competitive in dealing with life on life terms.

Aloha, Patty

[SweetPea]

I believe the impulse to change arises from within ourselves, but that kindness and acceptance can help nurture that flame. Sometimes we need a little extra support. There’s no shame in that. What’s more, shaming isn’t effective. Others’ resistance to such help is understandable when the subtext is one of contempt. If we truly want others to appreciate our viewpoints, we need to understand human nature: people can’t simultaneously trust us while we employ ridicule, and they can’t desire to incorporate our values when we delegitimize their personhood for not meeting personal or collective standards that we have decided are “proper/right/good.”

~~

The key is it works for EVERYONE that implements it. Having implemented it all the repression we may have felt over our weight disappears along with the pounds. Mental health MUST follow physical health on this issue.

I think healthcare that utilizes a multifront holistic approach can be even more effective. In some ways, I think it harks back to a time when doctors made house calls and had a bit more time to listen deeply to patients as individuals. The more we truly see people, the less we treat them as statistics or problems to be fixed.

To many people use "other peoples cruelty" as the excuse for not making progress. ….

That’s not my experience.

Fat acceptance is a reaction response.

I think we may perceive it that way, just as gun ownership rising after a mass shooting (that might bring about the desire for more gun restrictions) is also sometimes perceived as a reaction response. It’s certainly easier to call others reactive than ourselves.

We do have the responsible answer to obesity right here in our hands and we need to be sharing it, not fighting over petty details.

Sharing what message though? Dr. McDougall’s message is that it’s the food. Not that we should shame people for a lack of willpower. Experts studying conflict resolution in domestic, community, and global situations are finding that tone matters, validation matters, subtext matters. Denying this means we stay part of the problem. I don’t see these as petty details.

We can have endless discussions about why people act a certain way or we can make it irrelevant in our lives. ALL OF US have that choice.

I think it’s inherently relevant to understand where others are coming from if we are going to coexist peacefully.
That’s why an open dialogue on this forum is so crucial. When posts are edited without acknowledgement and threads are locked without warning, it stifles our understanding of others’ positions and actually undermines it. Dr. McDougall thrives on differing opinions. Disagreements aired passionately without name-calling can be quite productive.

You posted 49x (by my count) on the recent gun-control thread, and I had no issue with it. I learned much from that thread. I didn’t think you were “browbeating” anyone. I believe this topic deserves at least as much input and attention on this forum.

No one ever taunts or smirks at the trim , healthy person.

Actually, there are several threads on this forum by posters who have been mocked by others for their thinner physiques. No one feels good being attacked for their looks. Supermodels, arguably some of the most beautiful people on earth, struggle with anorexia/bulimia ~ mental health conditions ~ in large part due to the pressures put on them to meet impossible standards. There are countless threads on the internet shaming women’s looks to infinity and back. I don’t find that kind or helpful, but more than hurtful, it’s nonsense. No one's value comes from just one aspect, and besides, all judgments are subjective. Nevertheless, for all those who make such comments and suggest women "deserve" it, I suggest they start posting pictures of themselves skimpily clad or while eating. Dr. McDougall has actually done both.

I don’t think we should have Fat Acceptance.

I do. I really do. I think that may be the best place to start, actually.

~~

I deeply appreciate those on the forum who consistently offer not just helpful information, but kindness and vulnerability in expressing what has worked for them. Those posts have helped change my life, and have made me feel cared for. Thank you.

[roundcoconut]

I honestly DO understand where f1Jim is coming from, because I too know two people who have completely given themselves over to their food addictions. They have kinda taken their experiences trying to walk more, or trying to eat food that doesn''t trigger their cravings, and have said, "I can't do that again. I just couldn't sustain it."

And because they didn't sustain healthful behaviors when they attempted them in their late thirties, then they have slid into a place where all foods are fair game, in any quantities. And it would probably be fine in my book if they were focused on positive things in other areas of their lives, but with some people, it's like they just sit down on the path in life, rather than do something meaningful or positive with the lives they were given. So, kind of being in a place of total discouragement in their lives, overall.

I have to say, though, that it seems as though statistically speaking, when we reach high levels of body fat, we usually aren't able to free ourselves from that body fat, if all we have access to, is the crappy misinformation available from mainstream sources. So, when I was at my SAD weight (at age 24), I took up running for a while (I trained maybe four months, and then did a 15K with my brother and some of his friends). And y'know, because I had no access to nutritional information, I TOTALLY did not outrun my fork. So, I was running 4.5 miles a day, five days a week, and continued at my SAD weight for another ten years, give or take five pounds.

So I think people see that, and they say, "I know that statistically, I am more likely to be hit by lightning than to achieve a "normal" BMI, so I'm not going to focus my efforts on trying to achieve the impossible."

With access to good health information, we are not in some kinda roach motel when it comes to body fat. ("Calories check in, but they can't check out."). (This was a commercial during the 80s, for those who weren't yet born, or didn't live in America -- "The roaches check in, but they can't check out.").

But yeah, it's not fun for me to see friends who have given their bodies over to their food addictions!

[f1jim]

I have no issue discussing the topics around obesity, health and mental health. They are perfect topics for this venue.
I just don't want new members to get the idea that this discussion forum is a place where fat shaming is allowed or tolerated. We remove any perceived fat shaming of a member as unacceptable and remove such a post immediately when discovered or reported.
Dr. McDougall, Jeff, Carol, and I are very proud of the atmosphere in the forums and we work hard to ensure everyone is welcome and free from attacks. We also are sensitive when the atmosphere on the boards is questioned. We want EVERYONE!
We might disagree with each other on subjects such as the use of the word fat or even the use of the word obese. We tend to use Dr. McDougalls usage as the standard of what is acceptable here. If his standard is unacceptable to anyone than perhaps this website is not a good match for someone. You can't run and maintain a discussion forum without displeasing someone.
Regardless of those issues if someone is interested in how to maintain a healthy trim weight (something many models are not!) we are here to facilitate their journey using the only truly healthy way to that goal. We strive to do it in a positive, affirming manner anyone can feel comfortable with.
We are not mental health professionals with the exception of Doug Lisle. He is an excellent source of guidance in those areas.
I post in areas I feel I have some knowledge of. I don't post in many topics I feel I have no knowledge in. So my post count will be very high in some threads and zero in others. No one is censored for the number of posts they make. Jeff, Carol, and I will lock down a thread for several reasons. Probably the most used reason is if tempers are flaring and personal attacks begin. Then we don't hesitate to lock the thread and let feelings retreat.
These are fun and enjoyable forums covering the gamut of subjects. If you feel there is an issue please PM any or all of us and explain. Don't throw a post out saying the atmosphere is bad. Help us keep our standards high.
f1jim

[SweetPea]

Many members over the years have stated a desire for more acceptance of nuance in how we approach the topics of image and identity and choice, both here and in the larger world. Some of those members have felt taken to task for their opinions and have left, while the status quo here has stayed largely the same. I think a multiplicity of input creates better and more effective solutions, and I just miss some of those folks, but I understand that most forums develop a kind of unwritten value system.

A forum is also largely a place of opinions, and on this one, opinions are frequently about what others’ appearance and health choices should be. I think everyone is moved by those openly sharing how their lives have improved to include more personal well-being and happiness due to the changes they’ve made. I’m less convinced that we are as effective (or in unison) when helping motivate others to greater well-being via opinions on how they should live, especially via harsh critiques and unrequested advice. To suggest that we know definitively how others should prioritize their lives prohibits us from truly understanding them and letting them show us how best to help, if it’s wanted. I think perhaps we are white-knuckling our own choices when that’s the case.

If an open dialogue on these matters is truly the goal, then accepting the forum’s standards needn’t preclude occasional disagreement. To state that such disagreement is wasteful, petty, reactionary, browbeating, and overly sensitive is one’s right (and opinion). Naturally I disagree, though I understand why my disagreement is not always popular. I feel that certain viewpoints will need to shift if they are to better encourage inclusion and better acknowledge the challenges and complexity of change. But the standards here are not my call to make.

I am grateful for the knowledge, understanding, and kindness I’ve also frequently encountered here.

Regarding the suggestion that the website may no longer be a good match for me, I think that may be so. And that’s all right. Be well.

[roundcoconut]

SweatPea, I want you to know that I again just loved your comments above (the post before last, in particular). I too think that the nuances of the environment we create with our words, matters.

Being able to talk about our attitudes, and the attitudes of others, is helpful. It is worth pointing out that most of the unhelpful attitudes are the ones that pervade this society, so it is no wonder that normal, everyday people have taken on those ideas, too.

On a forum like this where probably 50%+ are in some state of imperfect health, it is probably especially important that we allow people to come here without bearing any stigma or shame from dietary indiscretions of the past. We've all made mistakes! Some people have been on the dietary straight-and-narrow for a while, but we are all so fallible whether in terms of diet or in terms of other areas of our lives. I mean, everyone here probably has eating choices they're not proud of, and everyone here probably has a few failed relationships in their past. Live and learn!

Anyone who's ever lived a whole weekend in the Pleasure Trap well, then, don't do THAT again, but you could find similar stupidities in my past as well. Let's just start from ground zero.

The poster who had a lot of harsh words to say about people with size issues -- that kind of approach seems to torment people for mistakes that are now in the past and can't be undone. If you've eaten calorie-rich-and-processed foods, and have a lot of stored body fat to show for it, that is just a fact right now. Any donuts you ate in 2014, there''s really no way to go back in time and un-eat those. Too bad we can't jump into that DeLorean and travel back in time, but nope, no dice.

I will agree that plant-based people can be absolutely wonderful, and often ARE some of the kindest, most thoughtful people. But occasionally someone goes into the "words can hurt" mode, and goes on a bender, like the poster mentioned above. It is a really hard thing, to be on the ugly end of words that hurt, so I hope we don't get too many people on benders around here!

[f1jim]

"To suggest that we know definitively how others should prioritize their lives prohibits us from truly understanding them and letting them show us how best to help, if it’s wanted. I think perhaps we are white-knuckling our own choices when that’s the case."

I wish I knew exactly how members here are prioritizing others lives. We are all encouraging a particular nutritional diet and we even disagree on the best way to implement that diet. But agreeing that this is the best possible way to eat is not prioritizing anything about anyone. Explaining the benefits of following this program isn't bullying anyone. This website is about promoting a particular way to eat and we acknowledge people have the right to adopt as much and as little of those suggestions as they wish. Encouraging this way of eating is not putting commandments on stone and forcing obedience. It's using data and historical information to advance those suggestions. People have the right to disagree with most anything but it won't change the mission of this website.
If cruelty and meanness should raise it's head we deal with it swiftly. Even if it's just suspected we deal with it. No attitude of cruelty or meanness persists here and the suggestion it does is demeaning to the membership as a whole and specifically to Dr. McDougall. I do tire of the suggestion that we are not inclusive enough or insensitive of others feelings enough. There is no better group of humans with no better innate desire to help as this group here. I am privileged and honored to be a moderator and have a small part of keeping these forums going. The membership is diverse and eclectic. The hearts are huge and unselfish. The motives are pure and well intentioned. To say otherwise is to be misinformed. On 9.5 years I have never met anyone that these words didn't describe.
f1jim

[hope101]

IMHO the fat acceptance movement, if you have any familiarity with Dr. Lisle's work, is nothing other than a logical manifestation of the Ego Trap.

People have done their best to be fit and healthy and failed, either because they lacked crucial information, or because they gave up on their ability to systematically apply it in a toxic food culture. The only sensible response if you're stuck in the Ego Trap around food, then, is to conserve energy and avoid fruitless effort. You become like the under-performing, bright kid who doesn't try in school. You advertise your disinterest. You maintain what status you have preserved by avoiding yet another public failure. You resist pressure to change by digging in your heels, even if it results in self-sabotage. (You might even self-deceive by telling your internal audience you don't care about their opinion.)

So how does society respond? If we push in and offer unsolicited advice on health to another person, we've implied we know better and their status is inferior to ours. We've made it more likely they'll work to preserve their status by maintaining the disinterested facade.

If we make it about the possession of a personality flaw or ethical weakness, we remove status from them. Same response.

If we tie our status into their performance--i.e. "you'll prove I'm a brilliant helper/mother/spouse by becoming trim and fit"--we've increased the stakes and made it less likely they'll try.

The only thing that works, if I've understood Dr. Lisle's message and ethos, is to have the lightest possible touch. Answer questions when asked, not before. Put resources in their way and back off immediately. Keep the assessment, when solicited, mechanistic, free of reproach, and bite-sized.

Anyway, I hope I haven't misrepresented Dr. L's work. I'm inordinately grateful to his website, which explains a few personal foibles and why I've had to parent my two children in vastly different ways. I'm currently working myself out of the Ego Trap wrt an artistic pursuit, which is why this teaching is of interest to me. (If you're similarly intrigued, check out his mp3s and videos at http://esteemdynamics.org.)

[roundcoconut]

People have done their best to be fit and healthy and failed, either because they lacked crucial information, or because they gave up on their ability to systematically apply it in a toxic food culture.

That is such a wonderful and clear explanation of things! Thanks for that.

I sometimes say in my mind (about all kinds of people, with or without food issues): "I want them to have what I have." And what I mean by that, is that if I could wave a wand, other people besides me would feel that they have every right to be here on planet earth, every right to take up space, every right to be seen and be heard. A lot of people in this culture seem to lack this, for many, many reasons, and I think that makes life harder emotionally.

Also, if I could wave my magic wand, I would want people to feel confident enough, or strong enough, to be in full self-expression, regardless of whether they are out of step with society. So, whether a person wants to grow orchids or work with grieving horses, I want them to do that and not feel anxious about their interests being out of step with mainstream values.

It seems like relationships are another biggie. I wish that normal, run-of-the-mill people felt perfectly empowered to feel good about themselves as a single person not in a relationship, or felt perfectly empowered to pursue romantic relationships or even just more friendships.

There are dietary, health, and appearance-related things also, that I feel I have in great abundance, that I notice other people are lacking and wanting. Things like peace with food, a body you really genuinely like aesthetically, and feeling pretty in clothing (and naked).

So, all those influences mean that I'm almost always supportive of people who pursue a plant-based diet, but am almost always supportive of people (with good or SAD eating patterns) who are pursuing other things.

I like when people are using their human life to grow and take chances, so I at least hope people are engaged, and USING their life force. Beyond that, I like to mostly trust their judgment!