Dr. Joel Fuhrman

[GeoffreyLevens]

It could be, but they would be wrong. Best available science is best available science.

Yes and they would say exactly that as well!k People can read same studies and come to different conclusions.

[Nean]

I just don't go to his forum etc anymore because you can be here for free, everything is free, but over there, he makes money off you every month. More power to him and his wonderful family, but I'll support all the other folks who are helping their communities for free. (even given Dr. McDougall's comment that his basic program is free because for so long he couldn't even give it away )

[Spiral]

Burden of proof is on the person or company making such claims and as Jeff Novick has pointed out many many times, when you follow this WOE you don't need supplements minus B12, supplements don't work, can actually be harmful and when tested they general do not contain what they claim.

So how are they an excellent value/money? They are not. They are a waste of money.

I find it interesting how Dr. Fuhrman will say, on the one hand, that we might not be able to get enough essential fatty acids or taurine from our food. Then on the other hand Dr. Fuhrman says, oh by the way, I sell these supplements that you can buy and they will remove these deficiencies.

Dr. Fuhrman would have more credibility is he was not selling the supplements and only recommended them. Sort of like Dr. Greger. Dr. Greger isn't selling anything.

[bbq]

Dr. Fuhrman and his family living the healthy lifestyle on a trip to Jamaica!

That's the kinda stuff someone would "brag" about in public, no wonder he's gotta make money to afford trips with 4 relatively young kids on top of various college expenses.

As reality sets in, is it somewhat easier to pay those bills while hawking supplements?

When I first started on a plant diet I figured I would see Dr. Fuhrman, only about 100 mile drive.

He takes no insurance, $550 cash, and you see an associate??

no thanks

Can't blame him when he's got so many mouths to feed while they're still growing up.

[GeoffreyLevens]

He takes no insurance, $550 cash, and you see an associate??

Have you checked prices for private practice, specialty M.D.'s lately? That is almost certainly the going rate as they have massive insurance costs and of course standard office set up is very expensive to run. I live in tiny, very rural, mountain town and local Naturopath charges $360/hour for office visit and he does not pay highly trained staff for hours and hours work of billing insurance companies

[dailycarbs]

I first saw Fuhrman on PBS and immediately had a bad reaction to his style. Seemed unctuous and not to be trusted. This was early in my journey to find a new woe. I have since read his book, eat to live, and some of his stuff on the web and reconsidered that at least he has something positive to say behind that facade. That said, I put a lot of stock on what I think of people's character and I don't place him in the McDougall / Esselstyn / Campbell echelon. Furthermore, his diet recommendations (while pretty good) are going to make things expensive and difficult for people—thus more prone to failure.

I personally know 2 people who've been following him for years. One woman is not successful in my book. What she's actually doing without realizing it is Fuhrman as calorie reduction, back to sad, back to Furhman as calorie reduction. It's a moderate yo-yo diet in perpetuity with some weight gains and some losses, back and forth. Another friend, a man, was working the woe pretty well for a while, eating copious amounts of greens, some nuts, a bit of salmon. Last time I saw him he looked like he gained back all the weight. We had dinner together at a Chinese restaurant and I ordered brown rice and steamed veggies while he ordered fried fish. I guess that it's a safe bet that he's given the diet up.

I don't blame Fuhrman for these failures but I think that it's an indication of likely results when starches are not heavily promoted and messages to avoid rice and potatoes sneak in. I pay no attention to his supplement recommendations or much else he has to say otherwise. There are too many other sources of information available to worry about his latest missives and I certainly would not pay a cent to join his site. Frankly, health is not really all that complicated once you get the hang of what to eat. I think people make too much of it. Too much time on their hands, maybe. Also, I rarely watch Greger's videos of "of breaking health news" but once in a while, if someone here posts a link, I may watch. I enjoyed the one about beats and beat juice because I am huge beats fan and I love to hear good news about about my good habits. See what I did there?

[arugula]

[quote="]Can't blame him when he's got so many mouths to feed while they're still growing up.[/quote][/quote]

now that's an interesting comment.

one could read a lot into it.

are we supposed to give people a pass on the ethics of their behavior just because they chose to reproduce? are people who have reproduced more willing to do unethical things for money? are they more entitled to making more money?

it's something that only the filthy rich can afford imho. i never qualified.

it's a choice. kids don't just happen. i don't think we should excuse him or anyone for money grubbing because he has babies.

[roundcoconut]

are we supposed to give people a pass on the ethics of their behavior just because they chose to reproduce? are people who have reproduced more willing to do unethical things for money? are they more entitled to making more money?

Yeah, I think it's a bit of a polite fiction to say, "Well, I guess you can't blame the guy for shading the truth. He DOES have that huge mortgage to pay off." Or whatever the material excesses may be.

I would totally agree with you that people who are more materialistic only have RATIONALIZATIONS, rather than REASONS, for putting profits ahead of ethics.

For the life of me, I can't see why people are so in love with material goods. I spent enough time among the upper class (mostly via my education) and all I really saw were a bunch of depressed and neurotic kids whose parents either indulged them ridiculously or pressured them mercilessly.

In later life, I have waited on these people who are staying at the $400 a night hotel, and spending $10,000 on the ski vacation for their family (the private lessons, the expensive dinner reservations, the lift tickets, the hotel fare), and they just don't seem that happy anyways.

Anyways, that's neither here nor here, but I will say that the "Other doctors do it too" and the "All doctors do it" are foolish. It's not somehow more palatable when a plant-based doctor does it, than when your podiatrist pads his income at your expense. It's the exact same thing.

I wouldn't say that Dr Fuhrman is the devil because he takes vacations to Jamaica or pays (outright?) for his kids' (presumably) expensive schools, because yes, those are considered par-for-the-course aspirations (not flagrantly extreme or decadent) for the middle and upper-middle classes in America, but I happen to see those values as, ultimately, somewhat pointless.

[Skip]

Fuhrman, McDougall, Greger, Essestyn, Ornish and others agree on 95% of their dietary advice.......
We've been through this debate many many times: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50559&p=519635&hilit=Jeff+Novick#p519635

[Spiral]

are we supposed to give people a pass on the ethics of their behavior just because they chose to reproduce? are people who have reproduced more willing to do unethical things for money? are they more entitled to making more money?

Yeah, I think it's a bit of a polite fiction to say, "Well, I guess you can't blame the guy for shading the truth. He DOES have that huge mortgage to pay off." Or whatever the material excesses may be.

Just because Dr. Fuhrman is 95 percent in agreement with Dr. McDougall, Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. Greger and Dr. Ornish does not excuse his unethical behavior.

[VeggieSue]

Dr. Fuhrman and his family living the healthy lifestyle on a trip to Jamaica!

That's the kinda stuff someone would "brag" about in public, no wonder he's gotta make money to afford trips with 4 relatively young kids on top of various college expenses.

He also runs travel programs like Dr. McDougall. This may have been one of those trips. Dr. McD posts from Hawaii, right? Same deal.

He takes no insurance, $550 cash, and you see an associate??

Price is average for NJ for a non-participating physician's practice. In fact, it's a bit lower than a cardiologist my husband's aunt had one time - he wanted over $1000 up front for the first visit, subsequent visits she saw an associate for around $700, IIRC. Doctors are expensive here.

And don't get me started on hospital! Our local hospital dropped out of the Blue Cross network because they can get about 10x the amount by billing the patient direct instead of taking what Blue Cross wants to give them. It doesn't help our city's citizens that our local hospital has been named the second most expensive in the nation.

[soul food]

Thanks for posting on personality ethic vs. character, bbq. What is the source of that material?
It makes me think of Norman Vincent Peale, positive thinking as being personality ethic. The success culture.

soul food

[wade4veg]

It could be, but they would be wrong. Best available science is best available science.

Yes and they would say exactly that as well! People can read same studies and come to different conclusions.

Agree... its fun to read the posts of those so sold on their own favorite flavor of Kool-Aid that they just can't understand how anyone could enjoy the other flavors. That every flavor is still Kool-Aid escapes their consciousness.

Not to worry, the recently born-again types will typically find a new flavor of Kool-Aid a few years down the road and will then be equally adamant about it being the only true flavor. (Oh, their former favorite flavor...well, the new "best science" has proven that to be all wrong.... shampoo, lather, rinse... repeat....)

[GeoffreyLevens]

Wade4veg, well said

[Ltldogg]

It could be, but they would be wrong. Best available science is best available science.

Yes and they would say exactly that as well! People can read same studies and come to different conclusions.

Agree... its fun to read the posts of those so sold on their own favorite flavor of Kool-Aid that they just can't understand how anyone could enjoy the other flavors. That every flavor is still Kool-Aid escapes their consciousness.

Not to worry, the recently born-again types will typically find a new flavor of Kool-Aid a few years down the road and will then be equally adamant about it being the only true flavor. (Oh, their former favorite flavor...well, the new "best science" has proven that to be all wrong.... shampoo, lather, rinse... repeat....)

What's funny is seeing people on this forum who disregard the info that Dr. McDougall, Dr. Lisle and Jeff Novick put out. Specifically, Dr. McDougall's message hasn't changed in 40 years and that is a starch based diet. He hasn't been proven wrong yet and the best available science continues to prove him right. That goes for his message on supplements, procedures and surgeries, prescriptions, etc, etc. Jeff Novick continues to always point us to the valid studies and points out the flaws and fallacies in junk science that the media and even Dr. Greger refers to. Also, as Jeff has pointed out, there is really nothing new that has been discovered and/or proven for a long time. The best available science has been around for awhile. That is why his message has also not changed for the 30+ years he has been practicing his trade.

There is no angle on the best available science. Again, the science is clear. The starch based diet that Dr. McDougall, Jeff Novick and Dr. Lisle teach is the healthiest diet and will provide the necessary nutrients, micro and macro. The science is also clear, supplements do not work and are not necessary minus B-12. They are a waste of money, not regulated nor verified by any organization, can be harmful to our health in some cases and are often not what they are being sold as. This is not subject to conclusions nor interpretations. Further, there is zero evidence that the ANDI system that Joel Fuhrman created is valid, has any merit, nor is healthy and necessary for any human. ZERO evidence.

So I ask any of the followers and protectors of Fuhrman in this thread, how do you validate your defense of him on these forums when it goes against Dr. McDougall, Jeff Novick and Dr. Lisle without any valid evidence? Fuhrman is a snake oil salesman! So you can continue to speak about me indirectly, but I'm no recently born-again, kool-aid drinking flavor of the month, bandwagon jumper. I'm completely on-board w/ Dr. McDougall, Jeff Novick and Dr. Lisle. Their message has been validated for decades and decades and isn't changing; so neither will mine. I will also continue to rail against the like of Dr. Fuhrman for all the reasons stated above.