"McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

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"McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby Risto » Thu May 26, 2016 3:34 pm

The video "McDougall Medicine: Biking" was just posted on the Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDlFxg7hrM

Dr. McDougall talks a bit about how much harder running is for knees and other joints compared to bicycling, which should be a good alternative for people with an injury from running. The video looks to be from the early 90s (?). It reminded me of the recent interview with Steven Sashen on Howard Jacobson's Plant Yourself Podcast:

https://www.podcat.com/podcasts/TCSuOL- ... -the-world

Sashen is the founder of Xero Shoes and he talks about running barefoot, and how many of the injuries from running are likely because of cushioned shoes. He mentions that some people were able to overcome what they thought was irreparable damage by throwing away their cushioned shoes and adjusting to running without them. The major shoe manufacturers have sort of gone back and forth on the concept in recent years, designing and selling some minimally cushioned running shoes, but at the same time marketing cushioned ones, and branding some shoes as "bare" or such, even though they have quite a bit of cushioning. It seems to be one of those things where people tend to assume that more and newer cushioning technology must be better, even though people have been running barefoot or with minimal sandals since the beginning of time. There's a pretty obvious parallel with processed food - nobody gets rich selling plain broccoli, or barefoot running. Somehow the competitive marathon runners don't use cushioned shoes even today. And if you look at a human foot, it should be pretty obvious that the impact of hitting the ground should not be on the (cushioned) heel (and carried from there directly to the knees to destroy them).

Dr. McDougall's video looks like it's from the time when cushioning was at its height and the major brands had not yet tried marketing specifically 'minimal' shoes. I wonder if the doctor's advice might be a bit different today. Not that there's anything wrong with bicycling! I was in the biggest bike store in my city today, and they had many, many nice things in there, and I was highly tempted to splurge on a shiny road bike. Managed to control myself.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby Spiral » Thu May 26, 2016 4:31 pm

I think biking injuries are less frequent than jogging-running injuries. However, those biking injuries can be catastrophic.

Take Dr. Esselstyn's biking accident a few years ago. Dr. Esselstyn fractured his pelvis in several places.

People are advised to wear bicycle helmets when biking. But I've never heard people advised to wear a helmet when jogging or running.

I am biased because I am a runner. I have been able to stay injury free for the last several years. I think if one keeps the intensity of ones running low and keeps the mileage reasonable, avoiding injury as a runner is not hard. But that's just me. I know lots of runners who do have all kinds of issues with their knees and feet and hips.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby dailycarbs » Thu May 26, 2016 7:56 pm

I'm not a runner. I hike and I used to do a lot of bike riding. I do know many runners however and from where I stand, injuries happen from being overweight, running though minor injuries (turning them into chronic ones) and overtraining. Good form and all that counts for something but just go to the next 5k event and look to see who finishes in the second half of the field. Most of these people are better off walking...slowly! They're in no kind of shape to be running around the block—much less training for and participating in a 5k or longer.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby vgpedlr » Thu May 26, 2016 8:36 pm

Spiral wrote:I think biking injuries are less frequent than jogging-running injuries. However, those biking injuries can be catastrophic.

Take Dr. Esselstyn's biking accident a few years ago. Dr. Esselstyn fractured his pelvis in several places.

People are advised to wear bicycle helmets when biking. But I've never heard people advised to wear a helmet when jogging or running.

I am biased because I am a runner. I have been able to stay injury free for the last several years. I think if one keeps the intensity of ones running low and keeps the mileage reasonable, avoiding injury as a runner is not hard. But that's just me. I know lots of runners who do have all kinds of issues with their knees and feet and hips.

Apples and oranges.

You're comparing two different kinds of injuries: overuse injury vs accidental trauma.

Overuse injuries are more common in running but they do occur in cycling.

Accidental trauma is more common in cycling, but it does occur in running.

Pick your poison, er I mean risk.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby geo » Thu May 26, 2016 9:28 pm

I remember reading an article back in '78-79 in one of the major running mags then (runners world?) by some doctor that claimed if you jogged/ran for a few years, that you were just about guarenteed to be injured. I think the rate was something like 97%. I would assume with much better training techniques and equipment that injury rates would have declined by today.

But it doesn't appear so:

2012 Harvard Study pegs injury rate at 30-75% every year: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... JWBfwk5UQQ

Univ South Floria says 65% of runners will get injured in any one year and you can expect 1 injury per 100 hrs of running: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 37LOMXZjGA

Sports medicine australia says upto 70% injury rate in any one year: http://sma.org.au/resources-advice/spor ... s/running/

This study from 1992 says 37-56% injury rate per year : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1439399

So it appears instead of getting better, injury rates for runners are staying the same or maybe even getting worse...And there are lots more studies over the years that pretty much say the same thing.

It seems decades of research in running/jogging techniques and equipment/shoes has not helped to prevent injuries. So how can you jog/run for health and avoid injuries?
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby Dougalling » Fri May 27, 2016 4:27 am

Hi

As far as I know, walking is still the best exercise.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby petero » Fri May 27, 2016 5:50 am

In Running Science (IIRC) the author notes that running injuries correlate with force of impact. So, developing a forefoot or midfoot strike is important. Too bad Hoka One Ones don't come in 2E. From what I gather, there's been a backlash against those "barefoot shoes" but barefoot running would quickly train you in the proper strike, I suppose.

For any given distance, I find running with a forefoot/midfoot strike to be less jarring on the body than hiking, because of the increased stop with every foot strike and the tendency to revert back to a heel strike, and the greater amount of time spent on terrain. Depending on the trail, jogging a bit often feels like a relief.

I'll bicycle again when I move out of the Appalachians. :D

(A couple of weeks ago I had some extensor tendonitis. Is that an "injury"? I just stretched my way out of it.)

edit to add: From personal experience, I know that good form is very, very important too.
It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame. -- Marie-Louise von Franz
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby haze5736 » Fri May 27, 2016 6:21 am

I'm 43 years old and I've been running for the past 12 years or more. Been dealing with knee pain for most of that time. I'm not overweight although I have lost 10 pounds eating this way. I've been to an orthopedist and pt with zero improvement. I was just about to give up running when I came across an article on trigger points. For the past couple of weeks I have been rolling out my legs to release the trigger points and my knee pain has just about gone away. Maybe that falls into the proper training category?
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby Werner1950 » Fri May 27, 2016 7:05 am

"Rolling out your legs"?? I have a visual of that, but I don't think that's what you are doing. What is "rolling out your legs"?
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby roundcoconut » Fri May 27, 2016 7:19 am

I believe the poster was referring to foam rolling. YouTube it!

The technique has been pretty mainstream for at least five years. The proper foam rollers are extremely dense and have very little give! It's like massaging out your body, by using your own body weight against the foam roller -- feels amazing.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby haze5736 » Fri May 27, 2016 7:24 am

roundcoconut wrote:I believe the poster was referring to foam rolling. YouTube it!


That is correct, I was referring to the foam roller.

I have read articles stating that you could use things like rolling pins in a pinch. There are all sorts of different things you can use. The foam roller was pretty cost effective for me.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby vgpedlr » Fri May 27, 2016 7:30 am

roundcoconut wrote:I believe the poster was referring to foam rolling. YouTube it!

The technique has been pretty mainstream for at least five years. The proper foam rollers are extremely dense and have very little give! It's like massaging out your body, by using your own body weight against the foam roller -- feels amazing.

Not in my experience, it hurts.

Plus I gave myself a season ending hip flexor injury with one.
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Fri May 27, 2016 9:27 am

Just a heads up on barefoot running: A lot of people have been injured by starting it too much too soon. Probably similar issues coule arise just changing from heel strike to mid and forefoot strike. A lot of muscles will be heavily used that have not been used previously so over use, strain, and sprain can easily occur. If you do start this, just ease into it. Very short intervals of gentle running on soft surface like grassy park or low tide beach flat sand alternated w/ rest intervals of walking while paying close attention to sensations in feet and ankles. When fatigue starts to set in with any muscles and esp if pain. STOP...long REST, the another short session.

You will have to search your own links but walking and running, in the absence of injury seems to reduce by quite a bit the incidence of knee arthritis and degeneration. That is reduce it, it is less frequent in runners as well as walkers! Bicycling long and hard seems to promote osteoporosis even in younger people; the suspicion is that acidity/free radicals created from the work load tend to leach out minerals from the bones and there is no compensatory impact/gravity force to promote bone remineralization. In walking and running, the feet impacting the ground sends compressive force to bones and stimulates bone strengthening over time. Full disclosure ;) :I don't do either all that much (full disclosure) except walking for some of my transportation around small town. My main exercise is mix of kettlebells and rowing machinne
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby roundcoconut » Fri May 27, 2016 12:08 pm

Just wanna chime in here, because while I think everyone's entitled to an opinion, I'm not sure I'm going to take Dr McDougall's opinion on exercise, with the same level of consideration that I would take his opinion on nutrition. He really knows his stuff on plant-based medicine and starch-based eating, and yet, I see exercise as a little outside a person's field of expertise.

The thing that I particularly notice is that there's this weird disconnect between the dialogue on joint health, and the dialogue on bone health.

So, when you start discussing joint health, a bunch of people in the plant-based movement will chime in to say, "Take up biking" and "take up swimming" because those are non-weight-bearing forms of cardiovascular exertion. Like, don't expose your joints to all that force of foot on concrete.

And then, when you start discussing bone health, a bunch of people in the plant-based movement will say, "You need to do some weight-bearing and high-impact exercise in order to maintain bone health of your spine." Well, uh, there's some contradiction there.

What seems logical to me, is that people should not avoid running as though they are little China dolls that will break if they train for a 10K. It also seems logical to me that people who enjoy hopping on a bike, or diving in a pool, be encouraged to do so, without weird scare tactics about their bone health.

But I too am out of my depth when it comes to exercise, and so all my observations and ideas should be taken with a grain of salt!
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Re: "McDougall Medicine: Biking", jogging injuries

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Fri May 27, 2016 4:30 pm

I think running is great, on concrete not so much. It is about the hardest most unforgiving surface around; far better grass, a track, the beach, a dirt trail...
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