Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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What is your resting heart rate?

35-40 beats per minute
1
2%
41-45
6
12%
46-50
5
10%
51-55
14
27%
56-60
11
22%
61-65
6
12%
66-70
5
10%
71-75
2
4%
76-80
1
2%
81-85
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 51

Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby JeffN » Wed May 25, 2016 12:28 pm

jay kaye wrote:Jeff N and study about calorie restriction? I thought that the newer consensus was that the result were more form restricting protein consumption than overall calorie reduction.Your thoughts?


The main benefit from CR-ON is from CR-ON and not protein restriction or intermittent fasting, etc etc

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=51595&p=528595

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49618

"For a while in CR, methionine (or protein) restriction became very popular and as potentially being even more powerful than CR alone. However, at the end of the day, after its all been evaluated, it turns out methionine (or protein) restriction is really about methionine (or protein) moderation. And, if you are following a healthy predominately plant based diet as we recommend, then you are at the .8gm/kg IBW. So, the problem was not methionine (or protein) restriction per see but methionine (or protein) excess in the SAD eaters and heavy animal protein/products eater."

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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby vgpedlr » Wed May 25, 2016 12:46 pm

JeffN wrote:Caloric restriction may reverse age-related autonomic decline in humans
Aging Cell. Volume 11, Issue 4, pages 644–650, August 2012

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 825.x/full

Summary
Caloric restriction (CR) retards aging in laboratory rodents. No information is available on the effects of long-term CR on physiologic markers of aging and longevity in humans. Heart rate variability (HRV) is a marker for cardiac autonomic functioning. The progressive decline in HRV with aging and the association of higher HRV with better health outcomes are well established. Heart rate variability assessment is a reliable tool by which the effects of CR on autonomic function can be assessed. Time- and frequency-domain analyses compared 24-h HRV in 22 CR individuals aged 35–82 years and 20 age-matched controls eating Western diets (WD). The CR group was significantly leaner than the WD group. Heart rate was significantly lower, and virtually, all HRV values were significantly higher in the CR group than in the WD group (P < 0.002). Heart rate variability in the CR individuals was comparable with published norms for healthy individuals 20 years younger. In addition, when differences in heart rate (HR) and HRV between CR and WD were compared with previously published changes in HRV induced in healthy adults given atenolol, percent differences in each measure were generally similar in direction and magnitude and suggested declines in sympathetic and increases in parasympathetic modulation of HR and increased circadian variability associated with CR. These findings provide evidence that CR has direct systemic effects that counter the expected age-associated changes in autonomic function so that HRV indexes in CR individuals are similar to those of individuals 20 years younger eating WDs.

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This partially why I measure HRV every morning. At least I did until I lost the dongle. Gotta find it. The main reason is to see how I'm responding to training, but it takes some practice.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby geo » Wed May 25, 2016 1:01 pm

What is Heart Rate Variability (HRV) specifically? Is it just the delta of heart rates measured during a 24 hour period or some other time period? Is their some interval for the measurements? How is it usually measured?
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby vgpedlr » Wed May 25, 2016 1:34 pm

geo wrote:What is Heart Rate Variability (HRV) specifically? Is it just the delta of heart rates measured during a 24 hour period or some other time period? Is their some interval for the measurements? How is it usually measured?

It is quite the exciting thing in the athletic world. Formally only available in hospitals, today's HRMs, coupled with an iOS device and the right connectivity can play too. HRV refers to the variability between heart beats. The heart does not beat like a metronome, it varies constantly. So 60 BPM does not mean a beat every second on the second. The HR speeds up slightly when you inhale, and slows down slightly when you exhale. It shows some of the health of the autonomic nervous system as it relates to the heart. The greater this variability is, the better.

For athletes, it can help prevent overtraining by giving insight into how the body is responding to training. Via the autonomic nervous system, you can see how much stress your system is under. After race, my HRV dips significantly. After some recovery time, it goes up. Aerobic exercise increases it, anaerobic exercises decreases it. Over the long term, it should go up. Seeing it dip is a warning to check into stress of all kinds. For instance, before illness, it plummets. Poor sleep drops it as well.

The problem is that it is highly individual, so it takes some time, patience and practice to figure out what it means.

Google it and get lost down the rabbit hole.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby jay kaye » Wed May 25, 2016 2:25 pm

Jeff N what about this "Geometric Framework studies" and the Okinawan Macro-nutrient study below?


The impact of low-protein high-carbohydrate diets on aging and lifespan: March 2016

Most research on nutritional effects on aging has focussed on the impact of manipulating single dietary factors such as total calorie intake or each of the macronutrients individually. More recent studies using a nutritional geometric approach called the Geometric Framework have facilitated an understanding of how aging is influenced across a landscape of diets that vary orthogonally in macronutrient and total energy content. Such studies have been performed using ad libitum feeding regimes, thus taking into account compensatory feeding responses that are inevitable in a non-constrained environment. Geometric Framework studies on insects and mice have revealed that diets low in protein and high in carbohydrates generate longest lifespans in ad libitum-fed animals while low total energy intake (caloric restriction by dietary dilution) has minimal effect. These conclusions are supported indirectly by observational studies in humans and a heterogeneous group of other types of interventional studies in insects and rodents. Due to compensatory feeding for protein dilution, low-protein, high-carbohydrate diets are often associated with increased food intake and body fat, a phenomenon called protein leverage. This could potentially be mitigated by supplementing these diets with interventions that influence body weight through physical activity and ambient temperature.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26718486


and

New Horizons: Dietary protein, ageing and the Okinawan ratio Abstract April 2015

Nutrition has profound effects on ageing and lifespan. Caloric restriction is the major nutritional intervention that historically has been shown to influence lifespan and/or healthspan in many animal models. Studies have suggested that a reduction in protein intake can also increase lifespan, albeit not as dramatically as caloric restriction. More recent research based on nutritional geometry has attempted to define the effects of nutrition on ageing over a broad landscape of dietary macronutrients and energy content. Such studies in insects and mice indicate that animals with ad libitum access to low-protein, high-carbohydrate diets have longest lifespans. Remarkably, the optimum content and ratio of dietary protein to carbohydrates for ageing in experimental animals are almost identical to those in the traditional diets of the long-lived people on the island of Okinawa.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27130207


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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby JeffN » Wed May 25, 2016 2:41 pm

They are not "restricted" or really "low" just restricted or low compared to typical intake. As pointed out above & quoted by Michael Rae, in the links in my last post

" Note that the methionine post linked above was heavy on emphasizing the limitations of the methionine restriction research at that time; today, I find it pretty convincing -- just irrelevant for human application, whereas methionine moderation is justified practice. (Please, please, please, people, stop muddying the water by referring to limiting one's intake of some nutrient to RDAish levels as "restriction" of that nutrient! "


So, if you are a typical American (even vegan) and eating 2-3x the level of protein and methionine and you adopt some form of CR with Protein restriction and your levels go down to the RDA (.8 or 10%), this is not restricting, that is adequacy.

Remember, even Fontana is not recommending a level of protein below the RDA.

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PS I may have screwed your post up somewhat as I hit "edit" by mistake instead of "quote" and ended up replacing your above post with mine. Than tried to recapture it. I think I got it except for your colors and underlining. Mea Culpa! :)
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby jay kaye » Wed May 25, 2016 7:19 pm

JeffN wrote:They are not "restricted" or really "low" just restricted or low compared to typical intake. As pointed out above & quoted by Michael Rae, in the links in my last post

" Note that the methionine post linked above was heavy on emphasizing the limitations of the methionine restriction research at that time; today, I find it pretty convincing -- just irrelevant for human application, whereas methionine moderation is justified practice. (Please, please, please, people, stop muddying the water by referring to limiting one's intake of some nutrient to RDAish levels as "restriction" of that nutrient! "


So, if you are a typical American (even vegan) and eating 2-3x the level of protein and methionine and you adopt some form of CR with Protein restriction and your levels go down to the RDA (.8 or 10%), which is not restricting, that is adequacy.

Remember, even Fontana is recommending a level of protein below the RDA.

In Health
Jeff

PS I may have screwed your post up somewhat as I hit "edit" by mistake instead of "quote" and ended up replacing your above post with mine. Than tried to recapture it. I think I got it except for your colors and underlining. Mea Culpa! :)


No Mea Culpa needed. I doubt that very many are even following this thread.

A couple of thoughts.

1. The 1949 Okinawans were eating only about 10% of there calorie from protein. They only ate about 100 fewer calories total than mainland Japanese. So what is the factor for their longevity? CR, Low Protein, macro or micro nutriments, being mostly plant based, low fat, or is a combination of all. And in all the "Blue Zones," a consistent factor seems to be low protein (10-15%) rather than CR.

2. Several years ago, after reading David Hegsted work on minimum protein requirements, I agree too, with Fontana, the the RDA's for protein are far to high.

3. I read the original Michael Rea quote link. He lost all credibility with me when he went on to talk about his "must-consume" extra virgin olive oil and his diet of 50% fat. (I don't follow him so maybe he has change his diet recommendation.)


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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby JeffN » Wed May 25, 2016 7:36 pm

jay kaye wrote:
2. Several years ago, after reading David Hegsted work on minimum protein requirements, I agree too, with Fontana, the the RDA's for protein are far to high.


Re-read my post, which I corrected, and all the links. I left the word "not" out by accident.

Remove Michael Rae's input and you still have the same conclusion.

Fontana does not recommend going **below** the RDA of protein. There are several links in my threads to his articles & a recent PPT of his, and other recent papers that support what I am saying.

But who cares what Fontana says, he recommends EVOO too. :)

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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby arugula » Wed May 25, 2016 7:51 pm

jay kaye wrote:I read the original Michael Rea quote link. He lost all credibility with me when he went on to talk about his "must-consume" extra virgin olive oil and his diet of 50% fat. (I don't follow him so maybe he has change his diet recommendation.)

j


he's insufferable. i tune him out. he used to push the "zone" diet, very high fat and high protein. he tends to use a pitchfork to drive away people who disagree with him. the papers he cites don't always support his point of view.

i found it incredulous that aubrey de grey selected him to co-author a book. it doesn't say much for de grey.

i'm ok with non-professionals taking a stance and reading the literature. i think that more people should read papers. but i'm not ok with them being wrong about what they read and then pushing it down people's throats so often and so loudly in such an egregiously awful way.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby geo » Thu May 26, 2016 8:55 am

For athletes, it can help prevent overtraining by giving insight into how the body is responding to training. Via the autonomic nervous system, you can see how much stress your system is under. After race, my HRV dips significantly. After some recovery time, it goes up. Aerobic exercise increases it, anaerobic exercises decreases it. Over the long term, it should go up. Seeing it dip is a warning to check into stress of all kinds. For instance, before illness, it plummets. Poor sleep drops it as well.

The problem is that it is highly individual, so it takes some time, patience and practice to figure out what it means.

Google it and get lost down the rabbit hole.


Thanks Vgpedlr!

Rabbit hole? More like a giant sink hole :lol:

Back in the old days (OK like 40 years ago) if you wanted to know how stressed or over trained you were you would simply monitor your RHR. If it started increasing, then you knew it was time to back off your training or rest. It was simple and easy and worked without any need for expensive electronics (and yes I'm a numbers guy and techie so I have an appreciation for these things). But what I couldn't find in my searching was exactly why HRV is better than RHR measurements for determining such things?

Does anyone know why HRV may be a better tool for such testing? Especially since it seems to be a pretty expensive way to go?

Also, does anyone know of other simple, quantifiable methods to determine stress levels/over training?
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby docscience » Thu May 26, 2016 9:34 am

Several years ago, I had lowered my resting heart rate into the 30's when I was doing a lot of long distance running. I have cut out the running for a bit, and my rate is higher at the this time.

The method that I used to lower my resting heart rate, was to sprint up a km or mile long hill, and try to lower my time on each run. I calculated that initially, this lowered my resting pulse rate by about a quarter beat/minute for each run.

And that is how it is done, not that it is the only method.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby vgpedlr » Thu May 26, 2016 9:50 am

@geo:

HRV is much more sensitive than RHR. You can watch it vary even depending on your state of mind, as any kind of stress will affect it immediately. That is why it takes a little time and practice to dial it in individually. You can watch it improve over time easier than RHR.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby geo » Thu May 26, 2016 10:55 am

Thanks again Vgpedlr!

Thats pretty much the conclusion I came to as well as the sensitivity is much improved. But my basic question still stands. Is higher sensitivity that important? I mean I can be extremely accurate with just measuring and watching RHR over time. If it goes up a few beats over a day or two then I know I need to respond to that. Its quick, simple, and cheap. With HRV, its very cool to see all the numbers and such that can be generated and how specific effects can cause stress levels to change and such, but is that extra sensitivity all that much more useful? I've read a lot of what Ben Greenfield (no I dont follow or believe in the guy) had to say about HRV and its definitely fascinating if not a bit complicated. But do you really need that much info? and do you really have to spend all that money as well? Yes I would love the tech and the sensitivity, but I'm more interested really in the training and consequent health changes than spending all that time recording all those numbers and graphs and such. (Yeah secretly i'm envious of that equipment though:P )

And your little rabbit hole side track gave me an opportunity to check out the latest tech sold on amazon....mmmm portable handheld ECG's for ~$200, now there's a christmas wish gift! Though not sure exactly what I would do with it, but I guess they would show HRV as well...love those ECG charts to really see what your heart is doing!
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby vgpedlr » Thu May 26, 2016 11:30 am

geo wrote:Thanks again Vgpedlr!

Your welcome.

Thats pretty much the conclusion I came to as well as the sensitivity is much improved. But my basic question still stands. Is higher sensitivity that important? I mean I can be extremely accurate with just measuring and watching RHR over time. If it goes up a few beats over a day or two then I know I need to respond to that.

Most folks that have tried both find HRV more sensitive and therefore more reliable. They find that it responds faster than RHR. That has been my experience, though I never used RHR much. But I can see quicker and wider variation from HRV sooner than RHR. Having both numbers can be useful.

With HRV, its very cool to see all the numbers and such that can be generated and how specific effects can cause stress levels to change and such, but is that extra sensitivity all that much more useful?

In my experience, yes.
I've read a lot of what Ben Greenfield (no I dont follow or believe in the guy) had to say about HRV and its definitely fascinating if not a bit complicated.

I've followed him for years and learned a lot, but I disagree with a lot of his opinions as well. I actually learned about HRV from Maffetone's Big Book.
But do you really need that much info? and do you really have to spend all that money as well?

Of course not. Depending on the individual, it's not that expensive. Many athletes already have an HRM, if it's bluetooth compatible then it's just a cheap app purchase. For myself, I had to buy a separate dongle to connect my HRM.
Yes I would love the tech and the sensitivity, but I'm more interested really in the training and consequent health changes than spending all that time recording all those numbers and graphs and such. (Yeah secretly i'm envious of that equipment though:P )

Then forget about it and go on your merry way. I find it fun and useful, but it is not for everybody.

And your little rabbit hole side track gave me an opportunity to check out the latest tech sold on amazon....mmmm portable handheld ECG's for ~$200, now there's a christmas wish gift! Though not sure exactly what I would do with it, but I guess they would show HRV as well...love those ECG charts to really see what your heart is doing!

This looks like fun as well.
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Re: Resting Heart Rate and Longevity

Postby JWinchel » Thu May 26, 2016 12:07 pm

Wow, I'm on the high side. Sitting at my desk I calculated RHR at 66. But again, because of my back injury, I've done very little exercising in the past 5 months. I intend to change that next week when I join a gym with a therapeutic pool. One morning my RHR was 90 and yet my BP was 114/80, which I found strange.
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