based on NYT Article re: Biggest Loser, will we all fail?

[StarchHEFP]

This article came across my notifications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html?_r=0

Same thing above said as I've read before about the body wanting to desperately "defend" its weight when weight lost. Should we all just accept what our weight is? Or is the takeaway point of the article that physical activity is absolutely necessary with lifestyle changes, and as soon as you stop moving, your body just finds a lower setpoint of metabolism that is 500-800 calories below your normal, to start gaining again?

Main point of discussion, how do you MAINTAIN the weight loss of a plant based diet? If not, what factors do you think are involved in the regain? Everybody talks about weight loss, but I haven't heard anyone talking about maintaining the loss or even regaining the weight.

It has to do with resting metabolism, which determines how many calories a person burns when at rest. When the show began, the contestants, though hugely overweight, had normal metabolisms for their size, meaning they were burning a normal number of calories for people of their weight. When it ended, their metabolisms had slowed radically and their bodies were not burning enough calories to maintain their thinner sizes.

Researchers knew that just about anyone who deliberately loses weight — even if they start at a normal weight or even underweight — will have a slower metabolism when the diet ends. So they were not surprised to see that “The Biggest Loser” contestants had slow metabolisms when the show ended.

What shocked the researchers was what happened next: As the years went by and the numbers on the scale climbed, the contestants’ metabolisms did not recover. They became even slower, and the pounds kept piling on. It was as if their bodies were intensifying their effort to pull the contestants back to their original weight.

[f1jim]

I believe the body is compensating for the huge increase in exercise these people are doing. The body senses this huge effort and does it's best to compensate, still worried about that upcoming famine but even more concerned about correcting the severe caloric burn. This is why you can't exercise your way around a poor diet. The diet must be of primary importance. The exercise sends off too many signals warning the body to prepare for exhausting it's reserves.
f1jim

[StarchHEFP]

I believe the body is compensating for the huge increase in exercise these people are doing. The body senses this huge effort and does it's best to compensate, still worried about that upcoming famine but even more concerned about correcting the severe caloric burn. This is why you can't exercise your way around a poor diet. The diet must be of primary importance. The exercise sends off too many signals warning the body to prepare for exhausting it's reserves.
f1jim

It seems like a "lowfat vegan diet" as PCRM/McDougall recommend may be a little immune from the problems above. That's why in their weight loss studies, PCRM doesn't have them do any prescribed exercise:

http://www.pcrm.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/health/medstudents/The%20effects%20of%20a%20low-fat%20plant-based%20dietary%20intervention%20on%20body%20weight%20metabolism%20and%20insulin%20sensitivity%20.pdf

Why then did they not interview any PLANT BASED experts for the article or reference any studies like the above?

[f1jim]

My guess is following the exercise program the Biggest Loser participants use will cause this effect in any nutritional program. It's just not a natural thing to burn 8,000 to 12,000 calories a day.
It makes for lousy TV but losing the weight by eating a proper diet (despite who the shows sponsors are) won't send the body racing to protect reserves. Humans generally can't exercise like the participants do their whole life.
What can they do? I think we know the answer.
f1jim

[arugula]

didn't read the article but i think the problem with gaining after weight loss is in the brain, not the body. the brain is used to having the incessant stream of reward and most people, maybe the very large majority, can't turn that off forever.

[Hopingthisworks]

Don't the contestants lose the weight very fast? I don't watch this programme. If there is a very fast weight-loss coupled with an extreme amount of exercise, then are they more likely to have problems?

Most people seem to do well on the plant-based diet, probably partly as the food is so filling and the rules are simple. If you weight starts to go up you can just decrease the calorie density of what you are eating.

I don't exercise at all because of illness, and I sometimes have to spend a significant amount of time resting/lying down. I didn't use this diet to lose weight as I had lost most of it before I heard about it, and transitioned sort of slowly over to this way of eating so can't say it helped with significant weight-loss because I didn't use it for that, but it has helped me maintain most of the weight-loss without much effort.

I did put up a bit of weight a few years in (only a few kilos, not a significant amount. This might also have been partly hormonal-related), so I have altered what/how I eat a bit. I have decided that I want to try to go a bit of a lower weight than my original goal, so I will be using calorie density rules to see if I can do that. I am not overly bothered about that though so it could take a while as I am not willing to put too much effort in

I have been particularly sick the last few months, and have had to spend a lot of time in bed, but I have not put any weight-up. My appetite just lowers a bit when I am less active and goes up again when I am more active. I am also conscious of the calorie density rules which probably helps. I might be a bit of an extreme example on the no-exercise front, but wouldn't most people be somewhat like this in terms of appetite? They feel more hungry when they do more and less hungry when they do less?

A bit of exercise would be ideal, but I don't think people need to do crazy amounts or be condemmed to putting all the weight back on. I think a lot of people on the boards seem to maintain their weight-loss, unless they slip back eating more high-fat and fried foods. There seems to be many similar stories on you-tube.

[Jumpstart]

There is nothing new here. Many of the Star McDougallers who have lost lots of weight and have maintained that new weight for years have spoken often on how low their calorie count needs to be to maintain that new low weight. Anyone that believes that eating as much starch as they wish won't put the pounds back on are just kidding themselves.

[f1jim]

Listening to many Star McDougaller stories I do notice they tend to eat smaller amounts of food than previously. But they tend to do that NOT by consciously watching calories but by eating till "reasonably" full. They still eat lot's of food but many use caloric density to adjust their caloric intake without counting or measuring anything.
f1jim

[katgirl55]

It is sad that after all of that hard work that people gain the weight back. This past year I have experienced some of that myself. I lost 70 pounds back in 2013, and this last year about 25-30 of that has been trying to move back in. It is very frustrating, but the frustration is with myself because I can see what I'm doing to make it happen.

I was not doing the high amounts of exercise as these BL folks. I don't watch the show but have occasionally in the past. When I see these 300+ pound people pushing themselves so hard to make Jillian or Bob not yell at them (or whomever is training now) it kind of makes me angry, because I think it is dangerous at that size and a waste of time when it is diet that is helping them lose the weight.

Now, on the other hand: I can see the value of exercise while trying to lose weight as a way to integrate the mind and body and connect the dots. I can see where being more active, pushing your body past its comfort zone, and getting outside could all have added benefits than just burning more calories. Losing weight is a mental as much as a physical challenge.

[hazelrah]

When I see these 300+ pound people pushing themselves so hard to make Jillian or Bob not yell at them (or whomever is training now) it kind of makes me angry, because I think it is dangerous at that size and a waste of time when it is diet that is helping them lose the weight.

I don't know if I think it is more dangerous than remaining at the level of obesity they are at. When I was 21 I lost 100 pounds. In my mind I always credit the fact that I began running for that loss, but I also read the Pritikin Plan and established my understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet, most of which is consistent with the tenets of the McDougall Plan, so I am not sure which contributed the most to that weight loss. The running kept me motivated, so to that extent, I am sure that it deserves quite a bit of credit. And, sure enough, even though I continued running, I regained the lion's share of that weight (by not following those dietary tenets). Still, I think most of the evidence these days points to the idea that the danger of strenuous endurance exercise builds over the course of a lifetime. In that sense, using exercise exclusively to lose weight is dangerous, but I still kind of doubt that it is as dangerous as remaining sedentary and continuing to eat a toxic diet. After all, weight loss in and of itself improves life expectancy odds. Too bad they can't come up with something that rewards people for conscientiously eating properly. But looking back on it, that reward is getting to see the full panoply of life; spending decades with a life partner, watching your children grow into honorable adults,... It just doesn't make for exciting television.

Mark

[EvanG]

It's a single data point, but I find it interesting that the only one who kept losing weight after the show was the one who lost the least amount of weight during the show. She lost about 60 lbs in 6 months, or 2.5 lbs / week. That's still really fast weight loss. It would be interesting to see more data, especially with more people that lost weight slower.

There are you tubers who talk about wrecked metabolisms and starvation mode. I don't give much credence to what in particular that they are saying, but this data for the biggest loser cohort is confirming the idea of something like starvation mode as a possibility in some instances. It's a ridiculous failure that the author didn't try to address the issue of losing too quickly. Instead they implied that it was inevitable for all weight losers.

[katgirl55]

Mark,

I get what you're saying. I agree that I think exercise is important for the big picture. For a normal person though, even one who is 480 pounds, they will not exercise 7 hours per day. The person who is 480 pounds watching the show will think that is what they need to do in order to lose weight, and can risk severe injury or cardiac arrest if they are not fit enough to exercise at that level. They also sure don't make me want to exercise at ANY level, because it doesn't look like much fun. Can exercise be fun and sustainable? Sure, but not the way you see it on BL. And after the show, we find out that it is not sustainable at all and most will gain the weight back. Just not sure that show is really helping people in the long run the way I see Dr. McDougall teaching people sustainable ways to lose weight and keep it off.

[patty]

It is as Dr. McDougall says, It's the Food. In Jeff Novick's Calorie Destiny DVD, he shares we SUBCONSCIOUSLY eat the same amount of WEIGHT of food daily. 95% of hospital visits are lifestyle. 95% of our day is habit. Addiction is a thinking disease. Food addiction is a great portal to change how we are holding our thoughts. Fear is False Evidence Appearing Real, a apparent reality. Thoughts come and go, Me (the SUBCONSCIOUS IDENTITY WEIGHT ) is the greatest addiction of all. The Placebo effect is what healsy. It is only seeing that sees.

Aloha, patty

[roundcoconut]

Well, I'm not in love with shows like this. They are total garbage on so many levels!

However, I can see why horrible and morally bankrupt companies would want to advertise in this time slot. I mean, it's like one big infomercial for how you will be accepted, applauded and beautified by having a smaller body.

If I had to have an alternate slogan for a whole natural foods diet, I would say "It's not just the food, it's also the ENVIRONMENT".

I mean, it's really interesting to notice how people lived at this remote location, and learned food choices and behavior patterns within the context of that environment. They inherently didn't learn food choices and behavior patterns within the context of their home environment -- so these ppl returned home to Pittsburgh (or wherever) and they didn't have ingrained habits about how to meet friends for coffee, how to shop at their local grocery store, and how to attend a baseball game in accordance with the eating patterns they practiced during filming. I don't think the shows producers cared a hell of a lot that these people had learned to navigate an environment that had little in common with the one they would ultimately be living in.

If I had one message for people trying to change their way of eating, it would be to ALWAYS set yourself up for success. If you have "failed" 9 out of 10 times you've gone to happy hour with your co-workers, then please find other ways to socialize outside of work. If you have "failed" 9 out of 10 times you try to practice moderation with sugars or flours, then please experiment with environments in which it is impossible to go back for seconds on sugar or flour products.

One other thing that is sometimes said (am I quoting Chef AJ?) is "In your house, In your mouth." Meaning, many people have to realize that the foods they keep in their house, and the quantities they keep in their house, will have a HUGE overall effect on their long-term health outcomes.

It is not about blaming the environments for your failure or your success, but about being proactive. People who make impulse purchases at the gas station might learn to pay at the pump and never, ever set foot in the store. People who make impulse purchases in the grocery store might learn to shop in the produce aisle and never browse the "health food" aisle with their weird gluten-free baked goods and vegan chips ahoy.

[hazelrah]

Mark,

I get what you're saying. I agree that I think exercise is important for the big picture. For a normal person though, even one who is 480 pounds, they will not exercise 7 hours per day. The person who is 480 pounds watching the show will think that is what they need to do in order to lose weight, and can risk severe injury or cardiac arrest if they are not fit enough to exercise at that level. They also sure don't make me want to exercise at ANY level, because it doesn't look like much fun. Can exercise be fun and sustainable? Sure, but not the way you see it on BL. And after the show, we find out that it is not sustainable at all and most will gain the weight back. Just not sure that show is really helping people in the long run the way I see Dr. McDougall teaching people sustainable ways to lose weight and keep it off.

I've never seen the show, but I'm pretty sure there's no question that, in the long run, it's not helping anybody. Like all things in life worth having, good health must be earned by steady application of honest effort. That doesn't make for good But if they are 480 pounds, I think they are at as much risk of severe injury or cardiac arrest with every breath they take. The exercise might open a path to a better life for them. Whatever they are doing sure isn't working as is.When I was a Junior in HS, at almost 300 pounds, my History teacher was a track coach I said track sounded cool. He thought I might want to do shot put or hammer, but I told him I thought I'd like to run. he kind of rolled his eyes. About a decade later I was running marathons. Who knows what might have happened if he had tried to work with me to get me to start running when I was 16?

Mark