Why don't more people eat this way?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Spiral » Sun May 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Excluding people I chat with in this discussion forum, people like you, I do not know a single person besides myself who subscribes to this way of eating. I have often wondered if maybe only 1 out of every 200 Americans eat this way. No meat, eggs or dairy and no vegetables oil. No (or very little) fake meat, fake cheese and fake sausage. Even plant based milks are consumed in a very limited way.

The health benefits are enormous. I just finished watching Dr. Greger's most recent video titled Curing Paint Diabetic Neuropathy.
Twenty-one diabetics suffering with moderate or worse symptomatic painful neuropathy for up to ten years were placed on a whole food, plant-based diet along with a half-hour walk every day. Years and years of suffering and then, complete relief of the pain in 17 out of the 21 patients within days.

Wow. That's amazing. And this is where many of us might think, "It's too bad most doctors are in the back pocket of big pharma and only give their diabetic patients drugs instead of giving them guidance to follow a healthy diet." I think this type of thinking obscures the reality that most doctors are just as ignorant of nutrition facts and nutritionfacts.org as their patients are.

Okay. So, people want to do the right thing, want to eat the right way or, in the case of doctors, want to give the right advice, they just can't because they don't know any better.

Well, that's not a completely satisfying answer either. If a dumb ass like me can find out about the McDougall diet and Jeff Novick's nutrition guidelines, why can't a really smart physician find out about it? Why can't my really smart friends and relatives and co-workers find out about it?

This is where I think it just comes down to this issue of deferred gratification versus instant gratification.

Most of us remember when we were in high school and there were these really studious classmates who always got their homework done. They always finished their book report on time. They always made sure that they were prepared for an exam because they studied hard.

While the benefits of this behavior were not immediate, the burdens were. Instead of hanging out with friends in the afternoon or listening to music or smoking weed, they had to hit the books. Even for a studious geek, that might not have always been fun. It might have seemed like a better decision to simply study no more or less diligently than the majority of ones classmates. You know. Attempt to be kind of average, normal. Not really smart. But not stupid either.

Doing things this way would likely result in graduating from high school on time and perhaps admission to a non-elite University. And at that University one could avoid the really tough courses. You know. Avoid physical chemistry, calculus based physics, abstract mathematics and other courses requiring a lot of study time. You get a degree in 4 to 6 years and then you enter the work force and perhaps earn a decent income.

I think this is how it works in nutrition too. Your co-worker brought in donuts to celebrate some occasion or maybe just to be "generous" to her co-workers. Eating the donut might appear to bring instant gratification. But the pounds keep piling on. Where's that will power?

And then rejecting the donuts isn't really enough, is it? If you avoid the donuts and reach for a grilled cheese sandwich instead, from a health perspective, there's isn't a lot of payoff there. In order to improve ones health through proper nutrition, one must learn about the subject.

That's another area where most people are in the "mushy middle." Most people claim to be very interested in nutrition. But are they? Would they consider going to the library and reading "The China Study" from cover to cover? Or would they rather read Denise Minger's blog post criticizing it, deciding then that this book had been "debunked" and was not worth reading?

True story. Once I had a book report due in about 3 days. But I had not even started reading the book. My father and I went to the library. My father showed me a book review of the book on which I was supposed to do my book report. I read the book review and felt confident that I knew enough about the book's storyline that I could complete my book report. I did and I got an "A." I asked my father if this was cheating. He said, "No. This is just making use of the resources that are available to you." Upon reflection, I don't think he was correct.

People who say "I am willing to do the hard work in order to reap the benefits" are the people to whom this way of eating is attractive. This means that this way of eating isn't attractive to very many people.

What do you think?
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby kirkj » Sun May 01, 2016 4:31 pm

I wonder about this all the time, thanks for bringing it up. I think it has something to do with "hitting bottom". Most of us come to this way of eating to solve some kind of problem. For those of us who get it, this WOE solves or reduces the problem. It feels sensible to make the required sacrifices in return for getting rid of the problem.

My problem was fighting with my weight my entire life. Over 40 years I had been on about a dozen different diets, many of them many different times. I never became obese but I was always fighting and the whole process made me miserable.

I got here gradually, first giving up meat and dairy and then after a couple years, oil sugar and salt. When I learned I could pretty much eat whatever I wanted if I avoided meat, dairy, processed food, oil and sugar it seemed obvious that was the way to go. But, I was utterly sick of dieting and fussing about the whole issue (I had hit bottom). The sacrifices seemed the obvious choice and far easier than constantly dieting.

I know vegans but don't personally know anyone eating WFPB. It is one of the reasons I look at these forums nearly every day.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby pundit999 » Sun May 01, 2016 4:39 pm

Nah. I think this way of eating is not followed by very many people because
    There is not enough information on it. The nutritional message is utterly confusing with lots of highly qualified people advocating the exact opposite
    There is a lot of money on the other side.
    In our society it is difficult to make the change: think eating out, grocery stores full of SAD foods etc
    It is a very difficult thing to do in our society because we do eat very differently. I think this way of eating is a lot easier to transition to in India, China and Africa.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby arugula » Sun May 01, 2016 5:15 pm

i was 8 when we visited greece. i saw no post-menopausal women there who were not obese. since then i've been very skeptical about the "mediterranean" diet. i've seen first hand that it does not work. not in the way i would want a diet to work, anyhow.

also i made the connection that rich fatty foods were not good for me when i was still very young--13.

i think those two events were what allowed me to stay the course for so long.

for a while, maybe the 70s and the early 80s, it seemed that there was consistent advice to reduce fat intake. but somewhere along the line, the wires got twisted. now people don't have a clue. but more troubling than that is that very few of them would be willing to give up their last remaining pleasures in life. it really does mean that much to them.

when fatty foods, processed foods, and animal source foods are very expensive, people will have no choice but to eat this way. not sure if it will ever happen because so many companies and industries are making bank from selling poison to sick people.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby arugula » Sun May 01, 2016 5:18 pm

also: totally agree about abstract algebra. i had harbored the delusion that i had a brain until i sat in on that class.

odes, pdes, fluid mechanics, theory of isotropic turbulence, no problemo. but abstract algebra really made my head hurt, and i wasn't very good at it.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Spiral » Sun May 01, 2016 5:49 pm

pundit999 wrote:Nah. I think this way of eating is not followed by very many people because
    There is not enough information on it. The nutritional message is utterly confusing with lots of highly qualified people advocating the exact opposite
    There is a lot of money on the other side.
    In our society it is difficult to make the change: think eating out, grocery stores full of SAD foods etc
    It is a very difficult thing to do in our society because we do eat very differently. I think this way of eating is a lot easier to transition to in India, China and Africa.

I agree with most of this. Restaurants are not geared towards someone on this way of eating. Cooking without oil? Outrageous in the minds of most restaurant managers.

You mention India, China and Africa. But let's face it. China is rapidly moving towards American eating habits. KFC and McDonalds and Coca-Cola are certainly spending a bundle to get the Chinese as hooked on unhealthy food as Americans are. But lack of information?

You say that the "nutritional message is utterly confusing with lots of highly qualified people advocating the exact opposite." This is true. But that gets back to my point about "The China Study." I read The China Study back in 2010. I thought it was ...
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Lesliec1 » Sun May 01, 2016 5:52 pm

Spiral wrote: If a dumb ass like me can find out about the McDougall diet and Jeff Novick's nutrition guidelines, why can't a really smart physician find out about it? Why can't my really smart friends and relatives and co-workers find out about it?


Well, DumbAss, I think it's because there are different kinds of "smarts." There's book smart and there's also a kind of person who is skeptical and has a natural thirst for knowledge. If a dumbass like me found my way here, I think it's because I have always questioned the status quo and I was too stubborn to listen to what doctors told me because my instincts told me, "no keep searching."
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby skane9041 » Sun May 01, 2016 7:32 pm

Like Spiral, I don't know anyone in real life who eats this way. In fact, I'll go one better (or worse) and state that I don't even know one single vegetarian, let alone plant-based eater. Not one.

From my experience with my family and people I know, I would say that there are a couple reasons.
1. people want instant results and gratification. They do one "meatless Monday" and don't notice any change in how they feel and that is the end of that.
2. everything is about convenience. Most people I know eat out at restaurants far more than I do - which is hardly ever. Lots of them go out to eat at least 5-10 times per week, between various meals. Unless you never get tired of plain salad and baked potatoes, I'm not going to lie - eating at restaurants on a regular basis while following WFPB is either boring, a waste of money and/or just a pain in the neck.
3. people don't like change. They don't want to give up their favorite foods they've grown up on.
4. people don't want to be "different". Me, I don't care. I've been the oddball in my family since I became a vegetarian after the birth of my second child 24 years ago. Most people I know didn't even notice when I gave up dairy and eggs and switched to mainly whole foods a couple years ago. But I think a lot of people simply don't want to be "that person"....the one that asks for special things at restaurants, brings things to family gatherings, etc.
5. people believe what their doctors tell them. And usually that is "everything in moderation". :\
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby frozenveg » Sun May 01, 2016 7:44 pm

People don't eat this way because eating out, or eating at someone's house or a party, is a major pastime. Restaurants will never cook with no oil. And I'm going to be completely honest--food does not taste as good to people without oil, cheese, butter and the like. And then there are the chips, and the calorie-dense, dry crackers, chips, cookies, bread, crackers, and on and on, are the mainstay of snackers.

And people have a lot of stress and feel that they deserve something nice. A treat. Every day. Several times a day. People may want to be concerned about good nutrition, but that treat is far more important to their daily sanity--until they get to, as another poster said, rock bottom. And then, they may never hear about this particular way of eating; they will much more likely hear about either the no-carb way, or they will simply do the denial route. (My husband still says he's going to stop eating until he's lost at least 40 pounds. It's an emotional exaggeration, but still, it's what people want.)

I try to tell people about this when they ask, but it simply sounds like another, and more strange, diet fad. I have my doubts that it will ever become mainstream.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Spiral » Mon May 02, 2016 3:24 am

Lesliec1 wrote:
Spiral wrote: If a dumb ass like me can find out about the McDougall diet and Jeff Novick's nutrition guidelines, why can't a really smart physician find out about it? Why can't my really smart friends and relatives and co-workers find out about it?


Well, DumbAss, I think it's because there are different kinds of "smarts." There's book smart and there's also a kind of person who is skeptical and has a natural thirst for knowledge. If a dumbass like me found my way here, I think it's because I have always questioned the status quo and I was too stubborn to listen to what doctors told me because my instincts told me, "no keep searching."


LOL!! I guess I sort of opened myself up for that one.

Here's where I left off before my wife needed to use our computer. :)

. . . . . . but that gets back to my point about "The China Study." I read The China Study back in 2010. I raved about it to my relatives. Did this inspire my relatives (many of whom have advanced degrees) to read "The China Study?" No. Instead, most read Denise Minger's blog post supposedly debunking "The China Study."

A rational person might think,
Okay. A man who spent 40 years doing research has written a full length book about his career and his beliefs about proper nutrition and optimal health. And then there's a 25 year old blogger who has reached different conclusions. I've already read that blog post on the internet. I will go ahead and read the book, 'The China Study,' for myself and see who I think is right.


But instead, what my relatives did was use Denise Minger's blog post as an excuse to not read The China Study. These are people who were willing to read "Good Calories, Bad Calories," by Gary Taubes, from cover to cover.

The information is out there. If the information was not out there, how did we manage to find it? I knew about this way of eating for years before I adopted it (roughly, because I read Ornish's book in 1991 but didn't find McDougall's web site until 2010). A small amount of intelligence combined with a reasonable amount of interest in nutrition and health would lead people to this way of eating, if that's all it took.

As for grocery stores full of SAD foods. I shop at those same grocery stores. I know how to walk past the SAD foods and get to where they sell brown rice, lentils and frozen cauliflower-broccoli-carrots.

skane9041 wrote:Like Spiral, I don't know anyone in real life who eats this way. In fact, I'll go one better (or worse) and state that I don't even know one single vegetarian, let alone plant-based eater. Not one.


Wow. I do have an aunt who is a lacto-ovo-vegetarian. She's a big cheese fan. She also has two Medical Degrees, one in pediatrics from Yale University and another in anaesthesia from Duke University. So, let's be honest. My aunt does not eat cheese and eggs and yogurt because "the nutritional information isn't out there" about how unhealthy those foods are.

I do have a some friends who do not eat beef, chicken or pork. They do eat fish, cheese and eggs.

This is where I think you hit the nail on the head with your list. . . . .

skane9041 wrote:From my experience with my family and people I know, I would say that there are a couple reasons.
1. people want instant results and gratification. They do one "meatless Monday" and don't notice any change in how they feel and that is the end of that.
2. everything is about convenience. Most people I know eat out at restaurants far more than I do - which is hardly ever. Lots of them go out to eat at least 5-10 times per week, between various meals. Unless you never get tired of plain salad and baked potatoes, I'm not going to lie - eating at restaurants on a regular basis while following WFPB is either boring, a waste of money and/or just a pain in the neck.
3. people don't like change. They don't want to give up their favorite foods they've grown up on.
4. people don't want to be "different". Me, I don't care. I've been the oddball in my family since I became a vegetarian after the birth of my second child 24 years ago. Most people I know didn't even notice when I gave up dairy and eggs and switched to mainly whole foods a couple years ago. But I think a lot of people simply don't want to be "that person"....the one that asks for special things at restaurants, brings things to family gatherings, etc.
5. people believe what their doctors tell them. And usually that is "everything in moderation". :\

As for being different, when adopted this way of eating, I wondered a little bit, thinking, "Am I nuts? Am I the only person who cares about his health?"
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby frozenveg » Mon May 02, 2016 7:24 am

Spiral wrote:I wondered a little bit, thinking, "Am I nuts? Am I the only person who cares about his health?"

In a way, the answer is yes! Yes, you ARE the only person who cares about YOUR health. (I know that's not quite what you asked, but there it is.) You are also (until you can no longer feed yourself! :eek: ) the only one who can take responsibility for your health and for what food you are going to eat. Is it nuts? It's not mainstream, that's for sure. But most of the time, no one will notice that your way of eating is weird. (I can't remember if your wife is on board--my husband is still not, after 6 years--so it may be that she notices all the time.) But I wonder, with you, why so few people see the value in this way of eating, and why it seems so weird to everyone. It's the oil--I always lose the interested vegans when it comes to the "no oil" aspect. And yet it is so sensible!

I do actually work with someone who eats the way I do, and at least 3 other people here are vegetarians. Out of 29 people - that's pretty darned cool. It wasn't always that way, and likely not going to always be. But many of the younger people are starting to go in the vegan direction, and perhaps they are indicative of a trend? Here in extreme-land? Maybe. Cause for some hope.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby MINNIE » Mon May 02, 2016 7:41 am

I think it's ignorance, and fear of change.

But ignorance is the big barrier.

You have to either be lucky, or else be an independent thinker who diligently seeks out real knowledge, to even know that plant-based eating is a "thing". It's a signal that gets drowned in all the the noise coming from advertising by the processed food, pharmaceutical and medical industries.

I consider myself lucky. I was so ignorant! Then one day I randomly picked up one of Dr. McDougall's books in a bookstore, without ever having heard of him. I randomly opened the book, and randomly read the statement that humans thrive on starch.

:!: :!: :!: :!: Big light bulb moment!!

But, definitely a matter of luck, not smarts, for me:).

Ironically, I live in a university town full of smart and highly educated people. But that doesn't seem to extend to to knowledge about food and health.

In real/offline life, I don't know one vegetarian,one vegan, or even a person who eats SAD foods in moderation.

Not one :cry:
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon May 02, 2016 1:06 pm

All social forces from parents, peers, to schooling, the workplace, to advertisements, television and the rest of the entertainment industry contribute to producing a low quality type of human best termed as homo-consumens. Are you trying to saying that there is a way of eating that is better than another? Are you trying to judge people? Are you some kind of socialist that wants to prevent large food conglomerates, hospitals, doctors, insturance companies, Pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment companies, the livestock industry, slaughter and other animal product industries from making billions? I thought you pretended to be a free market ideologue, Spiral? Why do you care about pesky people and their health, when corporations are out there making a killing from unhealthy food and even more from the health problems caused by this food?

The more people I know, the less hope for the future I have. If you go Reddit and are not shallow the youth will attack viciously and write:
/r/iamverysmart


Homo consumens takes it as a grave threat to their identity if you maintain that not doing drugs is superior to doing drugs, if you maintain eating plant based is superior to eating rich foods, etc. Humanity is at a low enough level that all major corporations ruining the world and public health could be liquidated tomorrow and everyone would kill each other to replace them especially if they could enjoy being ultra wealthy. Ethics and health don't matter to most people except as lip service. It is all about about obtaining social status via displays wealth above else -- and eating a crappy, "rich" diet is a huge display of status and pleasure outlet for most people.
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby Skip » Mon May 02, 2016 1:39 pm

kirkj wrote: I think it has something to do with "hitting bottom". Most of us come to this way of eating to solve some kind of problem. For those of us who get it, this WOE solves or reduces the problem. It feels sensible to make the required sacrifices in return for getting rid of the problem.


You nailed it :!: It's a matter of firstly having the motivation and secondly getting the education and then having an open mind that the education just might be right for you and then having the guts and discipline to give it a try and see the magic happen to you.......
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Re: Why don't more people eat this way?

Postby dailycarbs » Mon May 02, 2016 1:50 pm

frozenveg wrote:People don't eat this way because eating out, or eating at someone's house or a party, is a major pastime. Restaurants will never cook with no oil. And I'm going to be completely honest--food does not taste as good to people without oil, cheese, butter and the like. And then there are the chips, and the calorie-dense, dry crackers, chips, cookies, bread, crackers, and on and on, are the mainstay of snackers.

And people have a lot of stress and feel that they deserve something nice. A treat. Every day. Several times a day. People may want to be concerned about good nutrition, but that treat is far more important to their daily sanity--until they get to, as another poster said, rock bottom. And then, they may never hear about this particular way of eating; they will much more likely hear about either the no-carb way, or they will simply do the denial route. (My husband still says he's going to stop eating until he's lost at least 40 pounds. It's an emotional exaggeration, but still, it's what people want.)

I try to tell people about this when they ask, but it simply sounds like another, and more strange, diet fad. I have my doubts that it will ever become mainstream.


I agree with this wholeheartedly but I take issue with the last sentence. I don't have any doubts at all that this will never, ever become mainstream. No matter how bad the health situation gets, people will wait for pills, medical procedures, and the silver bullet (genetic solution) to solve their health problems.

A agree with those who say that this has nothing to do with intelligence or education. I know plenty of well educated people (much more so than I am) who would never consider this. One friend, a retired lawyer, was trying to control her cholesterol and not give in to her doctor's insistence at she take a statin. She cut out meat and eggs but she refused to give up cheese and wine and said she'd see how it went. After a few years of this game (it obviously didn't work), she is now in a statin. Now get this! Her conclusion was that since she has to take statin anway, what's the use of denying herself? So she doubled down and now eats more meat than ever before.

The information is out there and easy to find. Yes, it's in a sea of disinformation but any semi-intelligent person who wants to find it can do so. I wasn't sick or obese when I found this woe so reasonably good health is a not barrier to entry either. What's missing in people is that they have a willful blind spot to reality in favor of delusional thinking. So you get fat, the industry accommodates you by changing clothes sizes and you can still wear the same size. If it's inconvenient to lower your cholesterol, we jut say it doesn't matter or give you a pill. If having a low bmi is healthy we say that bmi is inaccurate, irrelevant or just a big fat lie. Saturated fat, meat, it's all good for you because ketosis is good for you. You pick a problem and Sally Fallon, Jimmy Moore and their band of idiots and shills for big food Inc. will blast it with disinformation until it no longer worries you. Of course, you have to be willfully blind to all the studies over the last almost 100 years, epidemiological data, and just plain common sense to believe their tripe. And that's where the self-delusion comes in. So eat your bacon and eggs and call it good.
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