Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

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Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:54 pm

Could someone please clarify something for me? I have been advised in another forum (that also promotes this lifestyle), that I should completely avoid the tiniest, trace amounts of oil in some convenience foods, but they say the inclusion of nuts, seeds, tofu, avocado in those foods is fine, even if the overall fat content is higher than the product containing the trace amount of oil. They also happily accept the inclusion of the high-fat plant foods I mention in the daily diet (in moderation), while giving this advice re oil.

I note that Jeff Novack advises no more than 2 grams of fat per 100 calories when checking out processed food on the shelves. Personally, I aim for no more than 1 gram of fat per 100 calories when buying convenience food (as well as the other nutritional standards he mentions of course), but I well understand Jeff's advice and think it's perfectly reasonable too. I never use oil and/or any other refined fats either. Here's the story of why I adhere to those guidelines http://plantpoweredinlogan.blogspot.com ... about.html

Anyway, their advice seems odd. It means I can't eat a slice of shop-purchased wholemeal bread that contains 0.65 grams of fat per slice, just because some of that fat comes from added oil. There are 94 calories per slice in the brand I buy, so the 0.65 grams of fat it contains comes in at well under 10% of total calories. Meanwhile, it's supposedly OK for me to eat cashews (in some ill-defined moderation they say), even though a single nut contains about 0.66 grams of fat (the same as my whole slice of bread). This doesn't add up, surely a whole slice of bread is more satiating and far harder to overdose on? I mean, I could easily eat 10 cashew nuts without even noticing it, but I'd be very hard pressed to eat 10 slices of bread. In fact, it would be impossible for me to do that.

In my mind, oils and nuts are very much the same category e.g. both have a large amount of calories and fat in a very small volume of food and should be treated with equal caution. I think there's about 5 grams of fat in a teaspoon of oil, which is about the same as 7 cashew nuts. My stomach doesn't really care whether it gets a teaspoon of oil or 7 nuts, neither will make any appreciable difference to my satiety signals. Cashews seem to be something of a fashion in some circles lately, but I feel they're only marginally better than using pure oil (and make little practical difference to outcomes).

I also feel that advising people trace amounts of oil in some convenience foods is OK (within certain well defined limits), makes this lifestyle more user friendly, because oil is so widely used in baked goods.

Any comments on this would be very much appreciated :-)
Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Spiral » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:07 pm

I think your judgement is very sound. I purchase from Trader Joes a "fat free" Pasta sauce. But if you read the ingredient list, it does list oil as one of the ingredients. It has an asterisk next to it and it says, "adds a trivial amount of fat."

I know that sometimes the food corporations make their products appear to be zero fat by reducing the serving size so small that the fat grams or trans fat grams can be rounded to zero.

I do think that if hydrogenated oil appears in the ingredient list, you should put it back. But if it's soybean oil and it looks like this is not making the product a high fat product overall, I think it is a better choice than a ounce of cashews.

I think the 10 percent or 20 percent calories from fat is a good guideline. I think this is actually one of Jeff Novick's guidelines. I think you have it right.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:13 pm

Many thanks for this useful advice, very much appreciated. I think I'll use this forum from now on, the understanding and depth of knowledge seems more sound. I've been browsing around the threads, very useful and a lot to to learn :)
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby colonyofcells » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:16 pm

It can be hard to find processed foods without added oil such as the pasta sauces sold at costco. It is also hard to find bread without added oil, without added soy lecithin (a refined fat). Some breads substitute seeds to get rid of oil. I do use breads with no added oil such as manna organics manna bread (unfermented), grindstone bakery sourdough rye and trader joe's pain pauline (sourdough wheat). Mary Mcdougall suggests that if can't find bread (or other products) without added oil, just look for products where oil is near the last item in the ingredients list to keep the added oil to a trivial amount. Many people use the alvarado st bakery breads which have a trivial amount of added soy lecithin (a refined fat), but the label says 0 fat. Chemicals like hexane can be used to extract lecithin from soy.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:20 pm

Good advice again, thanks :)
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby brec » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:23 pm

Short answer: no one really knows.

My longer answer:

Other things being equal, an equivalent amount of fat from high-fat whole foods (HFWF) such as nuts and avocados is better than from added oil because the HFWF brings along fiber and nutrients.

Here's the judgment I've come to, with the part about nuts and avocados being fairly recent: as long as my total daily fat intake is within bounds -- very roughly, not more than 15% of calories -- nuts and avocados are fine. In fact, nuts in particular are more than fine; they're beneficial. They do require self-discipline, however, as to quantity.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby colonyofcells » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:27 pm

I don't use cronometer but 15% fat seems like a good guide to stay with the Starch Solution diet. 15% fat was used in the last multiple sclerosis study of Dr McDougall. I don't like refined substances so I do try to avoid oil altho a trivial amount is probably harmless. Office celebrations usually means restaurant food with oil so I probably get enough oil from those sources so it is ok for me to be strict with my own food. I view myself as an underachiever rather than a perfectionist and I just post my food items carefully to avoid the vegan police. I prefer to avoid accusations of having almost orthorexia and being a almost vegan avoids looking like a fundamentalist.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:48 pm

Here's the judgment I've come to, with the part about nuts and avocados being fairly recent: as long as my total daily fat intake is within bounds -- very roughly, not more than 15% of calories -- nuts and avocados are fine. In fact, nuts in particular are more than fine; they're beneficial. They do require self-discipline, however, as to quantity.


Yes, I agree - however I don't do that personally because I can't be bothered with portion control and if I told my hubby (who has cardio-vascular disease), that he can eat nuts and avocado he'd overdo it. That path is excellent for people who have a close understanding of what the limits are and know how very easy it is to stuff up, but heaps of lesser mortals out there (like my hubby), just hear "Yes, you can eats nuts and avocados." :wink:

PS - And yes, it's true that getting that fat from a whole plant source (rather than oil), is better, but it probably wouldn't make in difference in practical terms, because the amount of fat we're talking about is so small and the overall nutrient density of our diet is very good anyway (fruit, veggies, whole-grains), so an added little bit from a tiny amount of a high-fat plant food won't make much of a difference. Plus the only oil we get is from trace amounts in some baked goods. :)
Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Spiral » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:56 pm

A few more thoughts . . . .

Have you tried Ezekiel bread? They have a version that has no oil and no sodium.

How much sodium in milligrams are on a single slice of the type of bread that you are buying? Jeff Novick's guidelines say that the milligrams of sodium per serving should be no more than the calories per serving.

So, if one serving of whole wheat bread is 100 calories and the sodium per serving is 120 milligrams, that bread fails the sodium test. Might not be a big deal if you just eat one slice once in a while. But if you eat 4 slices each day, maybe you need a different bread.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:57 pm

I don't use cronometer but 15% fat seems like a good guide to stay with the Starch Solution diet. 15% fat was used in the last multiple sclerosis study of Dr McDougall. I don't like refined substances so I do try to avoid oil altho a trivial amount is probably harmless. Office celebrations usually means restaurant food with oil so I probably get enough oil from those sources so it is ok for me to be strict with my own food. I view myself as an underachiever rather than a perfectionist and I just post my food items carefully to avoid the vegan police. I prefer to avoid accusations of having almost orthorexia and being a almost vegan avoids looking like a fundamentalist.


Good advice too, thanks, love the irreverence ;-) I aim for 10% fat, because short of breaking hubby's arms (which I guess is illegal and would probably lead to divorce), I can't stop him cheating from time to time. If we're starting out from a lower limit, I hope this gives us more "Wiggle room" and means his occasional stumble is less of a disaster.
Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:06 pm

A few more thoughts . . . .

Have you tried Ezekiel bread? They have a version that has no oil and no sodium.

How much sodium in milligrams are on a single slice of the type of bread that you are buying? Jeff Novick's guidelines say that the milligrams of sodium per serving should be no more than the calories per serving.

So, if one serving of whole wheat bread is 100 calories and the sodium per serving is 120 milligrams, that bread fails the sodium test. Might not be a big deal if you just eat one slice once in a while. But if you eat 4 slices each day, maybe you need a different bread.


Not sure if that bread is available in Australia (but I'll check it out), and yes, thanks for the advice re sodium. I've been less vigilant re that because it's hard enough finding food that complies in regard to fat content - and hubby already calls me "The diet Nazi." He was diagnosed with a 90% coronary blockage and without my stubborn and unrelenting intervention, he'd only be following the "Moderate" (and fatal), advice of the Australian Heart Foundation. I already look like an extremist compared to them, I'm battling the medical establishment. We eat hugely increased amounts of fruit and veggies, so I hope that balances it out and neither of us suffer with hypertension. But yes, you're spot on, sodium is an issue too.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Crystal_Pegasus » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:04 am

I think with your husband's heart disease, NO OIL becomes much more important.

If you haven't read the book "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease" by Dr Caldwell Esselstyn, it would be a great resource for you.

Here is a link to a short video where Dr Esselstyn discusses no oil.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ogxki

A long video of him talking about making yourself heart attack proof can be found here. At about the 41 minute mark he mentions oil, then talks on it a little more a short time later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0

Here's a video (not brilliant quality) with Dr McDougall answering questions, including one about free oils. Go to about 9:15 until about 11:26 for that question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUFdRuXdl8o

As for no oil bread in Australia, the one I have found is Helgas Quinoa & Flaxseed. It can be a little harder to find than some of the varieties, but I've got it at both Coles and Woolworths.
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby f1jim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:20 am

For people with known heart disease the avoidance of oil is more than just solid advice because of the added calories and the lack of surrounding nutrients in the added oil. Those are all important considerations but for people with heart disease the added oils have a more sinister side effect...That of inhibiting dilation of the vascular system.
The problem is oil can be found in every category of food items in a market, much less eating out. It's all additive. Oil in your breads, oil in your sauces, oil in processed package foods, you name it.
Yes, it's work to eliminate these added oils from the diet. We live in a world where oil has become a staple of manufacturing any food item. It is frustrating reading labels on everything you pick up.
It's also frustrating to see heart disease progress. It's really hard to see people spiral down in health because of these modern choices our society has made regarding food.
It's also wonderful and miraculous to see what rewards being vigilant bring. Finding the breads like Ezekiel or Alvarado Street or Daves Killer Bread make it worthwhile. Finding sauces like many of the Muir Glen or Walnut Acres brands are wonderful. Taking the leap and making your own is the best. On many levels. I encourage everyone to continue to seek out the healthier choices. Seek out the brands that produce products that don't endanger our arteries. Reward them with our dollars.
Certainly make the best choices you have available but don't give up because it's more work. There is a reward for your diligence. Your arteries will thank you.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby MINNIE » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:51 am

Hi Morrigan,

Personally, I'm a No Oil Fundamentalist in my own diet. But I don't advise anyone else about what to eat.

However, Dr. McDougall does say "progress, not perfection".

You are the only one who can judge whether a miniscule amount of processed oil in your food puts you on the slippery slope (ha) to over consumption...or not.

Based on my habits, personality and medical history, it's worthwhile for me to totally abstain. So I do.

But that's only me, not you. :)
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Re: Questionable advice re nuts & oils, please help

Postby Morrigan » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:00 am

Thanks for the references/links to Dr. Esselstyn's advice re oil - also many thanks to f1jim, Norm and Minnie for the wise and detailed advice, very much appreciated :-) I have read Dr. Esslestyn's material, and we certainly don't use any free flowing oils or refined fats, however I'm not entirely sure it would apply to the 0.65 grams of fat found in a slice of the wholemeal bread we eat, most of which comes from the wholemeal flour. From my calculations using this info https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutr ... nt=100.000 out of that 0.65 grams of fat, only 0.14 grams comes from the oil. To put this in perspective, a teaspoon of oil is 5 grams, so that 0.14 grams of oil is 1/35th of a teaspoon, you couldn't even measure that out if you tried, plus it's surrounded by a large amount of bulk and fibre in the bread. I think it would be interesting to ask Dr. Esselstyn directly about this, as when he talks about not having oil, there is no way you can compare pouring oil over your food, to eating 1/35th of teaspoon in a slice of bread. And yes, I do avoid oils in processed foods, anything containing more than 1 gram of fat per 100 calories is rejected (which is even stricter than Jeff Novack's 2 gram limit). This means (in practical terms), the amount of oil we eat would not even be measurable in a teaspoon. I also think Dr. Esselstyn would prefer his patients to eat a couple of slices of this bread (containing just 0.28 grams of oil and 1.3 grams of fat overall), to half an ounce of cashews (around 9 nuts), which contains 6 grams of fat in a much smaller volume of food and fibre. Also, because we only eat food that gets 10% of its calories from fat (at most), we're only getting about 5% to 6% of our daily calories from fat overall, plus we're getting lots of fibre and no cholesterol. I think it would be interesting to discuss these points with Dr. Esselstyn.

Further, in the other forum I refer to above, I was told everybody (not just cardio-vascular patients), should avoid the miniscule, trace amount of oil I'm talking about here, in favour of eating foods like cashews. I don't think that's supportable.

Of far more concern is the three fatty chinese meals he insisted on eating while we were away camping, because we were "On holiday." I had a meltdown and he said I was over-reacting. Anyway, a few days later I dragged him down to the doctor and made him get blood tests (even though he didn't want to). Sure enough, his overall cholesterol and LDL has shot up and I'm feeling quite down about it. However, the silver lining is that he is now suitably chastened and admits I'm right about seemingly small things making making a very big difference. I guess he's lucky he's got a wife like me to poke a metaphorical sharp stick into him (ASAP), when he needs it. Hopefully he'll listen to me now . . .
Last edited by Morrigan on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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