Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A response)

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Gershon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:37 am

Skip wrote:vgpdlr,

You may be interested in listening to Joel Friel in the Trail Runner Nation podcast called Faster after 50 with Joel Friel (he also has a new book out with the same title.

He discusses the importance of some hiit in order to maintain a high vo2 max as we age. He concurs with the general 80/20 rule but talks about "peroidization" so at some point in your training cycle it might be 70/30 and at other times 90/10.


I bought the book. I do think there is value in attempting to hang on to all areas of fitness as long as possible or to get back what was lost. So far, he hasn't given any specific recommendations in the part of the book I read. I'll get to them.

In my opinion, he doesn't have any idea what LSD is/was. It was never intended to be long miles at a slow pace. There were two aspects. Some slow running for fun, and that's all. As a training method, there were race pace or slightly slower "intervals." For instance, a miler in high school might run eight quarters in 70 seconds with rest in between. Or 20 x 220 in 30-35 seconds depending on ability. It should be easy.

I found it humorous how he attributed the long lifespans in Okinawa mostly to exercise and not diet. I think he may get to diet later in the book.

In my observations, many people are missing "VOenough." I ran into a neighbor the other evening at a store about 1/2 mile away and we walked home together. He is about 28, and was huffing and puffing the whole way.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby vgpedlr » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:30 am

Gershon wrote:In my opinion, he doesn't have any idea what LSD is/was.

He absolutely understands it. In one interview, he made some great comments comparing his coaching to Maffetone. The problem with understanding LSD training is focusing on the "S" as Speed, when it should be understood as intensity. Over time, the speed should increase, even though the intensity does not. That's much easier now with HRMs, but even Lydiard kept the intensity of his long aerobic runs high enough for regular progress.

There's a difference between "slow" and "easy" which many people don't get. I didn't get it either until I tried Maffetone and diligently used a HRM.

I found it humorous how he attributed the long lifespans in Okinawa mostly to exercise and not diet. I think he may get to diet later in the book.

Having heard him describe the book in interviews, and a recommendation by a friend, it's next on my list. He makes it sound simple in the interviews, but I've referred to his Training Bibles for years, and the programs are complicated. As for diet, he is a 20 year veteran of paleo, and currently very low carb. He even co-authored a paleo diet book for athletes with Loren Cordain which inspired me to try it. Failed.

In my observations, many people are missing "VOenough." I ran into a neighbor the other evening at a store about 1/2 mile away and we walked home together. He is about 28, and was huffing and puffing the whole way.

Agreed. You don't have to exercise very much, or very hard to get VOenough.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 am

vgpedlr wrote:Just listened to three different interviews with him, including that one. One interviewer asked him about Maffetone, and his answer was very interesting


I would like to hear that. Would you please provide the podcast name and episode number or a link to it.
Thanks.........
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby vgpedlr » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:26 am

Skip wrote:
vgpedlr wrote:Just listened to three different interviews with him, including that one. One interviewer asked him about Maffetone, and his answer was very interesting


I would like to hear that. Would you please provide the podcast name and episode number or a link to it.
Thanks.........

There was a good podcast with Friel from Kona during Ironman World Championships on Endurance Planet.

Over at Nourish Balance Thrive with Christopher Kelly, he recently interviewed Friel, Maffetone, Mark Allen, and Timothy Noakes. They're all great. But be forewarned, Kelly is a low carb/paleo/keto guy.

http://www.nourishbalancethrive.com/podcasts/nourish-balance-thrive/
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby smudgemom » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:39 pm

Vgpedlr:

Are you up for Maffetone's certification program?
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby vgpedlr » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:28 am

smudgemom wrote:Vgpedlr:

Are you up for Maffetone's certification program?

I'm curious to see what it's about. But his stance on carbohydrates and diet in general bother me.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:01 am

No need to reinvent the wheel. Seems the current wheel (and recommendations) are spot on, especially to maximize the health benefit (which makes sense, since they are all health recommendations). :)

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43482&p=517476#p517476

Interestingly, the authors of this paper include Steven N. Blair, from the Cooper Clinic, and James H. O'Keefe, MD, who has authored many of the papers in this thread about the negative impact of two much running.

ABSTRACT
Effects of Running on Chronic Diseases and Cardiovascular and All-Cause Mortality.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2015 Nov;90(11):1541-52.
Carl J. Lavie, Duck-chul Lee, PhD, Xuemei Sui, MD, PhD, MPH, Ross Arena, PhD, PT, James H. O'Keefe, MD, Timothy S. Church, MD, PhD, Richard V. Milani, MD, Steven N. Blair, PED
doi: 10.1016/j.mayocp.2015.08.001
Epub 2015 Sep 8.

Full Text
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(15)00621-7/pdf

Abstract
Considerable evidence has established the link between high levels of physical activity (PA) and all-cause and cardiovascular disease (CVD)-specific mortality. Running is a popular form of vigorous PA that has been associated with better overall survival, but there is debate about the dose-response relationship between running and CVD and all-cause survival. In this review, we specifically reviewed studies published in PubMed since 2000 that included at least 500 runners and 5-year follow-up so as to analyze the relationship between vigorous aerobic PA, specifically running, and major health consequences, especially CVD and all-cause mortality. We also made recommendations on the optimal dose of running associated with protection against CVD and premature mortality, as well as briefly discuss the potential cardiotoxicity of a high dose of aerobic exercise, including running (eg, marathons).

Image
FIGURE 6. A 5-minute run generates the same benefits as a 15-minute walk, and a 25-minute run is equivalent to a 105-minute walk.

Video
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/cm ... 3/mmc1.mp4


Mass Media Article
ASK WELL
Ask Well: How Many Miles a Week Should I Run?
By GRETCHEN REYNOLDS
November 27, 2015

Q ; How many weekly miles should I run to improve my health?

A; Surprisingly few, it seems. According to a new review of studies related to running and health, jogging for as few as five or six miles per week could substantially improve someone’s health.

The reviewers found that even with such skimpy mileage, runners generally weighed less and had a lower risk of obesity than people who jogged fewer than five miles per week or (more commonly) not at all. These runners also were less likely to experience high blood pressure, cholesterol problems, diabetes, strokes, certain cancers and arthritis than the barely- or nonrunners.

“It seems like the maximum benefits of running occur at quite low doses,” said Dr. Carl J. Lavie, medical director of cardiac rehabilitation and prevention at the Ochsner Medical Center in New Orleans and lead author of the review, which was published in September in Mayo Clinic Proceedings.

As little as “one to two runs per week, or three to six miles per week, and well less than an hour per week” can be quite beneficial, he said.

Running a few additional miles each week could be worthwhile if you were worried about middle-aged spread, he said, because additional mileage is generally associated with better weight control, “and allows one to eat more calories.”

Someone hoping to become a better, faster runner also would need to run more than five or six miles a week, he said.

However, there may be an upper limit to the desirable mileage if your primary goal is improved health. Some evidence, he said, suggested that running strenuously for more than about an hour every day could slightly increase someone’s risks for heart problems, as well as for running-related injuries and disabilities.

Over all, Dr. Lavie says, the best advice based on the latest science is that for most of us, “running for 20 to 30 minutes, or about a mile-and-a-half to three miles, twice per week would appear to be perfect.”
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Spiral » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:31 pm

vgpedlr wrote:
In my observations, many people are missing "VOenough." I ran into a neighbor the other evening at a store about 1/2 mile away and we walked home together. He is about 28, and was huffing and puffing the whole way.

Agreed. You don't have to exercise very much, or very hard to get VOenough.


The issue of how much exercise is too much and therefore unhealthy is similar in many respects to the issue of healthy eating.

I think many people instinctively know that lentil soup is a healthier meal than a bacon cheeseburger and fries. But the issue of short term pleasure ends up, for many people, becoming more important than long term health.

Are people happier because they can go to their neighbor's party and eat baby back ribs rather than limit themselves to carrot sticks? Many people might believe so, until a bad health diagnosis emerges decades later.

Similarly, as a long distance runner (the longest distance I have ever raced is a half marathon), I know that if I were to show up at my running club runs and tell people that they should only run a handful of miles each week for optimal health, they would all laugh at me. Most would say, "I'm not going to just hide under a rock and hope to live to be 100. I am going to enjoy my life."

Dr. Esselstyn suffered a bad bicycle accident a few years ago. I know that bicycling is dangerous. It's one reason why I don't even own a bike and will only ride a stationary bike. But from a philosophical level, it is going to be difficult to consistently tell people to stop doing all of the things people do that make their lives enjoyable.

Think about the Olympic athlete. Whether it's figure skating or the 10,000 meters, the athlete is not training for optimal health. He or she is training to beat the competition and also to be the best he or she can possibly be. A great tennis player might know that all that extra time on the court is helping his backhand and his serve, but might be damaging his long term health.

But what does one really do with this information? We all sometimes travel to visit friends and relatives, even though the risk of suffering a fatal accident in transit is significant. But we do it anyway because we want to get something out of life beyond just punching a clock.

In order to get a long distance runner to not run as many miles and run fewer (if any) races, it's going to be necessary to explain to this runner from where he will obtain his excitement and joy. It's a tough sell. And I am not even sure it's a good idea.

We have lots of Star McDougallers. People who used to eat unhealthfully but changed their ways. We can read about how much happier these people are, now that they gave up those favorite foods of theirs and recovered their health.

But do we know any people who gave up participating in long distance races who say, "You know, I am so much happier now that I don't run in the Marine Corps Marathon or the Twin Cities Marathon or the Lake Placid Ironman Triathlon. I'm happier doing a 30 minute brisk walk five times a week." I'm skeptical.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:36 pm

I see it differently, and am coming from a different place, which I explained in the original article linked in the original post, that this thread was started as a response to.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43482

I'm not trying to tell anyone to stop doing anything they enjoy regardless if that is all those Americans who enjoy eating bacon or the very small percentage of Americans who enjoy engaging in extreme endurance events, to stop doing so. If it works for you, more power to you.

I'm trying to help the over 80% of Americans who are sedentary &/or do not meet the minimum recommendations of activity/exercise to optimize their health & realize that it doesn't take that much to get there & that they don't have to engage in high levels of activity/exercise or make huge commitments of time to meet these recommendations. Nor is it required. This is such a relief to so many.

On a personal note, posted here before, I used to run marathons and engage in other high levels of exercise/activity that I really enjoyed & am so much happier now since I learned all this & stopped the excess and reduced the amount.


In Health
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:54 am

The big news is nothing new. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Differential Effects of Aerobic Exercise, Resistance Training and Combined Exercise Modalities on Cholesterol and the Lipid Profile: Review, Synthesis and Recommendations
Sports Med (2014) 44:211–221 DOI 10.1007/s40279-013-0110-5
REVIEW ARTICLE

Abstract

There is a direct relationship between chronically elevated cholesterol levels (dyslipidaemia) and cor- onary heart disease. A reduction in total cholesterol is considered the gold standard in preventative cardiovascular medicine. Exercise has been shown to have positive impacts on the pathogenesis, symptomatology and physical fitness of individuals with dyslipidaemia, and to reduce cholesterol levels. The optimal mode, frequency, intensity and duration of exercise for improvement of cholesterol levels are, however, yet to be identified. This review assesses the evidence from 13 published investigations and two review articles that have addressed the effects of aerobic exercise, resistance training and combined aerobic and resistance training on cholesterol levels and the lipid profile. The data included in this review confirm the beneficial effects of regular activity on cholesterol levels and describe the impacts of differing volumes and intensities of exercise upon different types of cholesterol. Evidence-based exercise recommendations are presented, aimed at facilitating the prescription and delivery of interventions in order to optimize cholesterol levels.

Image
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:45 pm

Research
Past and projected temporal trends in arthroscopic hip surgery in England between 2002 and 2013
BMJ Open Sport Exerc Med 2016;2:e000082 doi:10.1136/bmjsem-2015-000082
A J R Palmer1, T T Malak1, J Broomfield1, J Holton1, L Majkowski1, G E R Thomas1, A Taylor1, A J Andrade2, G Collins3, K Watson4, A J Carr1, S Glyn-Jones1

Full Text
http://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000082.full

Accepted 1 January 2016
Published 21 March 2016

Abstract
Introduction
Hip arthroscopy is increasingly adopted for the treatment of intra-articular and extra-articular pathologies. Studies from USA demonstrate a 365% increase in the number of procedures performed between 2004 and 2009 and 250% increase between 2007 and 2011. There is limited evidence of long-term efficacy for this procedure and hip arthroscopy is not universally funded across England. The aim of this study is to describe temporal trends in the adoption of hip arthroscopy in England between 2002 and 2013 and to forecast trends for the next 10 years.

Methods
A search of the Hospital Episodes Database was performed for all codes describing arthroscopic hip procedures with patient age, sex and area of residence.

Results
11 329 hip arthroscopies were performed in National Health Service hospitals in England between 2002 and 2013. The number of hip arthroscopies performed increased by 727% (p<0.0001) during this period and is forecast to increase by 1388% in 2023. Females represent 60% of all patients undergoing hip arthroscopy (p<0.001). Median age category is 40–44 for females and 35–39 for males and average age decreased during the study period (p<0.0001). There is significant regional variation in procedure incidence. In the final year of this study the highest incidence was in the Southwest (8.63/100 000 population) and lowest in East Midlands (1.29/100 000 population).

Conclusions
The increase in number of hip arthroscopies performed in England reflects trends in USA and continued increases are forecast. Evidence from robust clinical trials is required to justify the increasing number of procedures performed and regional variation suggests potential inequality in the provision of this intervention.


Mass Media Article

Fitness craze fans need hip surgery in their 20s: 'Cross fit' and 'sumo squat' routines are creating injuries normally seen in 60s
By BEN SPENCER, MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR THE DAILY MAIL
PUBLISHED: 16:01 EST, 24 June 2016 | UPDATED: 17:08 EST, 27 June 2016

- Fitness programmes aim to help people work out in small amount of time
- Surgeon sees 200 under-30s a year for injuries suffered in extreme sport
- Keyhole hip operations in England were up 730% between 2002 and 2013

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z4EEWJvFg2
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby petero » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:00 pm

It looks like the popular article drew some unwarranted conclusions. There is no reason to think this has anything to do with crossfit or other "extreme" fitness trends. (It sounds like the femoroacetabular impingement is the result of an abnormality, so it would only affect people who are prone to it, and the labral tear is most likely with ice hockey, soccer, football, golfing and ballet, none of which have been part of any recent sports craze that I can see.)
It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame. -- Marie-Louise von Franz
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