Flu Shot

[Gershon]

I get the distinct impression that you are against all or nearly all vaccinations. I could be wrong, but when I see the use of the term "vaxxers" it sounds like one is including most vaccinations.

I'm against forced vaccinations for those vaccines which have not been proven to work.

[quote}Do you suggest not getting a polio vaccination? whooping cough? If you are of a certain age, were you against the small pox vaccination?'[/quote]

Here is where the government lied to people. Smallpox was eliminated long before the stopped giving the vaccination. The reason they continued to give it was because they were afraid Russia would use it in biological warfare.

California finally passed a law removing the "personal and religious belief exemptions" for children wanting to attend public schools. (of course, that does not apply to the flu vaccine, but does apply to whooping cough)
In the more serious diseases, too many parents are trying to have their children get a free ride on the backs of others, thinking they'll be safe because the herd is safe.

I've never heard a person against giving so many vaccinations saying their children were safe because the herd is safe. It is a nice sound byte to suggest they are looking for a free ride, but it's not factual. I've heard people say they didn't believe the vaccinations were safe.

They didn't used to vaccinate against Diphtheria, whooping cough or Pertussis until age 12. The only reason I had to get it then was because the Boy Scouts required it to go to camp. Pertussis is a useless vaccine as it only occurs when people have deeply infected wounds that haven't been cleaned. It was well on its way out when it was introduced. It's a nice way to pad a bill if a person goes to the ER for a few stitches.

If you want to convince a person against taking the high number of vaccines required today, you are going to have to present positive proof that they work and that they are safe. Emotional appeals are not going to work. Yes, you can work to make them mandatory, but don't complain when your freedoms are continually eroded through gradualism. I'm certain they will find some freedom in your life to legislate away "for the good of the children."

[wade4veg]

If you want to convince a person against taking the high number of vaccines required today, you are going to have to present positive proof that they work and that they are safe. Emotional appeals are not going to work. Yes, you can work to make them mandatory, but don't complain when your freedoms are continually eroded through gradualism. I'm certain they will find some freedom in your life to legislate away "for the good of the children."

i see, you keep beating around the bush.
Lets make it more simple. You use the term "vaxxers"
I suspect you are against all current vaccines... whooping cough, polio, etc.

Can you tell me which vaccines are OK today in the USA. Should anyone, any child, be given the polio vaccine?

How about in other parts of the world.. For example the polio vaccine in Pakistan. Is that appropriate?
Is the polio vaccine effective?

[Melinda]

I heard on TV that the flu shot this year has missed the main flu - again! (yes I know it mutates).

[Gershon]

If you want to convince a person against taking the high number of vaccines required today, you are going to have to present positive proof that they work and that they are safe. Emotional appeals are not going to work. Yes, you can work to make them mandatory, but don't complain when your freedoms are continually eroded through gradualism. I'm certain they will find some freedom in your life to legislate away "for the good of the children."

i see, you keep beating around the bush.
Lets make it more simple. You use the term "vaxxers"
I suspect you are against all current vaccines... whooping cough, polio, etc.

Can you tell me which vaccines are OK today in the USA. Should anyone, any child, be given the polio vaccine?

How about in other parts of the world.. For example the polio vaccine in Pakistan. Is that appropriate?
Is the polio vaccine effective?

Wade, I see you refuse to read what I posted, and then continue to say something that is not true. You suspect I'm against all current vaccines. I never said that. Read my last post and see which vaccines I'm against.

No, I can't tell you which vaccines are OK anywhere, because the drug companies are not giving complete information. It's not my job to care about parts of the world I have no interest in. If you care to move to Pakistan, perhaps you should investigate the results of forced vaccinations. At least they have the guts to fight for their freedoms.

The ball is in your court. Don't bother to respond until you can provide definitive proof based on peer reviewed studies about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines that are currently mandatory in schools.

[colonyofcells]

I remember I got lots of vaccines with my work visa and green card application. I am just glad I am not a nurse bec I don't like to be a part of the medical industry scam and pharma industry scam.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

I think that a nurse should be allowed to refuse a flu shot. I think that a patient should be informed that a nurse has not had a flu shot, and to request one who has had one if that's their preference.

That seems fair to all parties involved.

You can't run and staff a major hospital with certain nurses not being able to attend to this patient or that patient.
Nurses can need to attend to a patient on a moments notice.. Are you going to wait around until you page the appropriate nurse and she shows up?

This is actually what happens in some instances. Some hospital staff is trained to handle different types of patients. One example is during a cardiac arrest. The patient needs help from people who are trained to resuscitate and may not be in a unit where those people are available, so they have to come running. This is only one example of many. Today's technology means that there are highly specialized procedures and the equipment that goes with them, requiring specialized training. There is some cross training, but not every nurse can be an expert in everything.

If you don't like the rules... find work at a hospital that doesn't have the flu shot requirement.

In short, a employer doesn't have to be "fair" to everyone in making their work place requirements. Now, if the issue is negotiated between a hospital and a nurses union, that is up to them.

I think this is what the nurses in the OP's article at the link are doing. They are finding jobs where they don't need the shot, or are finding ways around taking the shot, because they know it doesn't work and they see the complications of getting the shot.

One of the results of mandatory vaccine requirements are that this is one more reason why nurses are leaving their jobs and finding other things to do. I'm glad that I have an alternative to working as a RN right now, but others like the OP are suffering assaults to their own health by staying on the job. Our healthcare system faces lots of problems, it doesn't need to bleed itself of the main body of workers who get the work of patient care accomplished.

[wade4veg]

Wade, I see you refuse to read what I posted, and then continue to say something that is not true. You suspect I'm against all current vaccines. I never said that. Read my last post and see which vaccines I'm against.

The only thing you say is "I'm against forced vaccinations for those vaccines which have not been proven to work."

OK, you do seem to be dancing, but the polio vaccine is required in California for the schools.
So I assume you feel that vaccine is OK, because it has a long history, world wide, of working.
Polio is on the verge of being eliminated after hundreds of years of crippling children.

Of course unless you have found some way to object to even that vaccine.... you know, because it is promoted by "vaxxers"

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

Wade, I see you refuse to read what I posted, and then continue to say something that is not true. You suspect I'm against all current vaccines. I never said that. Read my last post and see which vaccines I'm against.

The only thing you say is "I'm against forced vaccinations for those vaccines which have not been proven to work."

OK, you do seem to be dancing, but the polio vaccine is required in California for the schools.
So I assume you feel that vaccine is OK, because it has a long history, world wide, of working.
Polio is on the verge of being eliminated after hundreds of years of crippling children.

Of course unless you have found some way to object to even that vaccine.... you know, because it is promoted by "vaxxers"

The government also recommends that we eat a certain number of servings of meat and dairy and a little oil every day. For some people it is mandatory, if they are raising foster children or adopted children and being supervised by the state. In the state where I live, it is routine for young mothers to be questioned about what they feed their children, and a mother who feeds her own birth children a vegetarian diet - or admits to it - can be subjected to threats of having her children removed from her care.

If you think vaccines and food are not related, you're wrong. They are just another one of the things like alcohol and firearms that are regulated and overseen by the government. People on this thread have mentioned that alcohol and firearms should be banned. Dangerous thinking, in my opinion, when one group of people thinks they know better what everyone else should do.

[WyldMoonWoman]

I've been doing a bit of homework trying to determine WHY a flu vaccine would be mandatory. Put aside all of the hoopla discussed here about protecting patients and wrap your brain around this.

It's money driven.

Apparently, there is a 2013 requirement by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services that acute care hospitals report seasonal influenza vaccination coverage among health care workers to CMS. Those hospitals that do not report are subject to a 2% reduction in the annual payment increase under the hospital Inpatient Prospective Payment System, and the data about vaccination rates are made publicly available, according to Public Health Report. It took a lot of digging and reading on the CDC website.

I skimmed over 300 pages of 42 CFR Parts 405, 410, 412, 419, 475, 476, 486, and 495

I read the government recommendations for the healthy people 2020 initiative and wanted to puke....the performance goal is 90% influenza vaccination rate for healthcare workers in a facility.

Our healthcare reimbursement system is performance driven and twisted. For example, patient admitted for congestive heart failure, is discharged home, trips on the cat, breaks hip, and is readmitted to the hospital in under 30 days. The hospital is not reimbursed for this unconnected admission because it occurred less than 30 days after discharge from the hospital for a diagnosis of CHF. Makes no sense to me...but the pay for performance measure states that the patient needs to stay out of the hospital for 30 days and subsequent admissions that occur within this 30 day measure are not reimbursed.

Seasonal influenza vaccination is a big money maker for everyone involved in the process.

None of this changes the fact that my right to refuse treatment has been stripped from me...it's a little game of psychological warfare on healthcare workers played out by my government. I am in an uncomfortable position, I cannot quit. I have no other options. I've got 25+ years invested in my career. I can't walk away and start fresh, even though it sounds like a good idea.

Who has my winning lottery ticket?

[patty]

I couldn't understand the violence of the acculturated herd mentality we live in until Dr. Kapler stated this in Cowspiracy:

The purpose of cow’s milk is to turn a 65-pound calf into a 700-pound cow as rapidly as possible. Cow’s milk IS baby calf growth fluid. No matter what you do to it, that is what the stuff is.
Everything in that white liquid – the hormones, the lipids, the proteins, the sodium, the growth factors like IGF-I – are all there to start that calf growing into a great big cow, or else they would not be there.
Whether you pour it on your cereal as a liquid, churn it into butter, curdle it into yogurt, ferment it into cheese, or add sugar and freeze it to make ice cream… It’s baby calf growth fluid!
Its purpose is to increase weight and promote growth in tissues throughout the mammalian body. It’s great stuff if you are a baby calf, but if you are a human trying to create a lean, healthy body, it will NOT “do a body good.”

The health care company I work for the last two years we have the choice to wear a mask for the entire flu season or have a shot. If we chose the shot we have plastic gismo that is put on our badge to show we have had the shot. In the past I have refused, but now with this new rule I have surrendered to taking the shot. I have never had a reaction, but have always have refused on principle of not wanting any foreign material shot in my arm. I am getting close to retirement so I just accept it.

I have two indoor cats and a little dog. In walking my dog flea medicine wasn't working and spread fleas to the cats. I purchased another brand, Advantage flea medicine, for the dog and the cats. Everyone did fine, except for one cat. The hair where the liquid was applied to her neck fell out, then she started to get these sores around her neck. I called the vet and vet was on vacation but the receptionist told me that is what happened to her cat... and doing research on the internet it seems the case. Sometimes the cat dies. It has taken two months for that stuff to get out of her system. While this was happening I realized that is what is happening with these vaccines. You just never no who it is going to have a adverse effect from the vaccine. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a child's life injured or die.

Knowing we are still operating on a 700 pound cow mentality, my anger ceases a little, especially towards a medical/government system who are so transparent as they are operating as 700 lb Gods vs. tradespeople. I realize it is all a question of power, just as rape/bulling is. The Milgram Experiment the question was it just Hitler or was it whole Germany, who had this blind obligation to authority? People in Germany went to work everyday. Working in healthcare actually see the ramifications what their services do as I am on the bottom realm of the food chain. It is amazing witnessing the cortisol of the 700 pound cow. I am so grateful for the movie Cowspiracy as it explained a lot. And it is a authority issue.. but what you do to someone else you do to yourself a million times over. As I am You!

Aloha, patty

[Gershon]

Wade, I see you refuse to read what I posted, and then continue to say something that is not true. You suspect I'm against all current vaccines. I never said that. Read my last post and see which vaccines I'm against.

The only thing you say is "I'm against forced vaccinations for those vaccines which have not been proven to work."

OK, you do seem to be dancing, but the polio vaccine is required in California for the schools.
So I assume you feel that vaccine is OK, because it has a long history, world wide, of working.
Polio is on the verge of being eliminated after hundreds of years of crippling children.

Of course unless you have found some way to object to even that vaccine.... you know, because it is promoted by "vaxxers"

Wade, I think the statement "I'm against forced vaccinations for those vaccines which have not been proven to work" is quite clear.

Take a look at this list of possible side effects from the polio vaccine: http://www.rxlist.com/ipol-side-effects-drug-center.htm One of them is a life-threatening allergic reaction. This wouldn't be a possible side effect unless it happened. Put a percentage on the number of people who die from the vaccine -- we know they do or the life threatening side effects wouldn't be listed -- and tell me if the number of people who die from the vaccine is greater than the number who would die from polio if no vaccine were given, and I'll have an answer for you. It may be that Polio was less harmful than the cure. It's a basic patient right to be able to choose the odds they want to accept. If I were in Pakistan, I'd probably choose to take the vaccine, except the CIA has a history of using vaccines for nefarious purposes there. In the United States, where the disease is eliminated, I wouldn't take the vaccine.

There are many factors to consider before taking a vaccine besides, "the government says so." Why are the pharmaceutical companies and the government withholding the information that would make a logical decision possible?

By the way, the new three step vaccine is less effective and probably more expensive than the original shot was. Do you think that could be because the patent on the original vaccine has expired and drug companies can't make as much money on it? Who do you think they bribed to make the decision to change? Why did they switch to the oral vaccine in about 1959 when the injected vaccine was known to be more effective?

To answer your questions, I will not take any vaccines regardless of the laws. Preserving my freedom is more important than preserving my life. My children are old enough to make their own decisions.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

Who has my winning lottery ticket?

I sure don't.

I was going to make a comment about following the money, but I had no proof. Thanks for the proof, it's just what I suspected.

This isn't about health, it's about control and money. People have been brainwashed into thinking the flu shot will save them. I believe that hand washing with regular old soap and water, done consistently, and clean practices like modern sanitation and clean water supply, do more for eradicating disease than all the vaccines we have taken.

[dynodan62]

Points of interest noted:
1. The 11/14 MacDougall Newsletter flu vaccine article (linked in a previous post) is certainly food for thought. I DO find it a bit disconcerting though that a link to Russell Blaylock is included. When it comes to actual scientific proof, his paranoid/conspirist theories are right up there with the meat/dairy lobby front organizations.
2. Dr. MacDougall apparently does not consider face masks to be a valid deterrent against the spread of disease, and thus not a viable option for health workers to submitting to the administration of any effective flu vaccine.
3. Typhoid Mary was NOT a thoughtful/educated individual who weighed the available scientific evidence before arriving at a considered decision/course of action. There being no advanced DNA science at the time, no one could conclusively prove that she was responsible for infecting those that she cooked for. She therefore held her personal rights and welfare over those of the vulnerable public. Dr. MacDougalls very rational article opposing the general administration of current influenza vaccines should not cause him to feel insulted by my T.M. crack. Anyone who encourages the public to refuse vaccination in general because their bodies will be 'violated' by chemical assault, should indeed accept that label (in my opinion). If the shoe fits, wear it!

[patty]

I couldn't remember the name of the film that showed how pharmaceutical companies tested their new drugs on 3rd World countries. It was The Constant Gardner. True Vision has a online film.. Dying for Drugs, looks like a excellent film.

Aloha, patty

[Thrasymachus]

Now people here get all upset about GMO foods..
Tell me, how many people died last year (or any year) from eating GMO foods?

Yet most people who question flu deaths and the vaccine danger, are hugely scared about eating GMO foods where proven harm is nil.

I think you are seriously confused. If you eat organic, there are no real downsides other than a much bigger food bill for arguably no improvement in health.* If you follow all the best orthodox medical advice and procedures like pills, vaccines and surgery there are serious downsides and side effects, in addition to the extreme personal and societal costs expressed in dollar terms.

You always seem to ignore the deadly downsides of allopathic medicine for the alleged minuscule benefits and how they shift the buck like pointing to increased lifespan but ignoring that people are simply dying longer, or living longer with debilitating chronic health conditions.

*This post from Jeff Novick really made me open my eyes and stop wasting money on organic:
viewtopic.php?p=42917#p42917
Alot of the links are outdated and no longer work though, here are updated urls that do work:
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/200 ... ganic-myth
http://web.cals.uidaho.edu/plsc451/file ... Finkel.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/13/magaz ... GANIC.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12907407

@dynodan62:
Oh please, all these "but the science" people like you care the least about science. Medical research is not a respectable concrete science like physics and astronomy where there is a high rate of failed published hypotheses. In medical research almost all the research proves the initial hypothesis(probably because industry doesn't let studies that don't look favorably on their products see the light of day for obvious reasons and "independent" labs know they will lose business to labs that will fudge results to please their paymasters who pay them to conduct studies to get their expensive procedures and drugs approved and serve as advertising to medical professionals.) It is statistically too good to be true. And very little of this medical research is ever attempted to be replicated and when they do try, they often find it cannot be replicated. I have posted so many times Youtube videos of John P Ioannidis and the talk of Gilbert Welch where Welch mentions that modern medical research is generally considered proprietary. Even the actual people conducting medical research experiments often don't have access to the full data-set, it is considered proprietary, a trade secret of the associated medical industries.

And ftw, McDougall became against flu vaccines because two of his patients became disabled:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/may/swine.htm

There are no current effective vaccines. My last experience with Swine Flu vaccine was in 1976—two of my patients became permanently paraplegic from the vaccine. The vaccine turned out to be more dangerous than the original flu outbreak, which killed only one person. From the vaccination of 40 million Americans, 25 people died and 500 were affected with Guillain Barré syndrome, a serious neurological disorder. We have learned much since then about vaccines.

https://www.facebook.com/vegsource/post ... 2205957192

Dr. Mcdougall no longer regularly recommends flu shots after two of his patients were paralyzed from the waist down by the swine flu vaccine.

What made him change his mind was patient experience, he looked at studies after. Alot of these plant based doctors want to keep their medical licenses, you have to remember and they are not really free to say whatever they want about allopathic treatments. They already get enough flack and are picking their battle. You can manipulate medical studies in so many ways, and it is really not a respectable scientific field.