Flu Shot

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: Flu Shot

Postby VegOn » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:16 pm

There are no forced vaccinations in the US. Forced means that no other options exist, that something is done without your consent. While vaccination may be mandatory in order to participate in certain things (such as public schools in California or certain healthcare professions), there is always the option to decline the vaccination. While an individual may not be happy about receiving the vaccination, the vaccination can only be given with that individual's consent.

To the OP, it is unfortunate that you do not see another option available to you. The job opportunities for qualified nurses do seem to be abundant, so I hope you are able to find a position that appeals to you and offers you the option of wearing a mask. As someone with a disordered immune system, I do get an annual flu shot, as do my family members. For me, getting the flu would mean at best a stay in the ICU. Ironically, this is not because my immune system is weak, rather because it reacts too strongly (think cytokine storm - that is what would most likely be going on in my lungs during a bout with the flu, and the reason that the 1918 flu was most deadly among the young and healthy who had strong immune systems).

So, yes, I do believe that it is important that individuals who choose a healthcare profession stay current with their vaccinations, both for their own benefit as well as for the protection of their patients.

ETA: Look into the intradermal flu vaccine if you find yourself in the same position next year. It is given with a microneedle, so is painless as it is injected into the dermal layer of the skin rather than into muscle tissue. It requires only a fraction of the dose of a traditional flu shot and is even more immunogenic.
VegOn
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:10 pm

Re: Flu Shot

Postby katgirl55 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:01 pm

I had a coworker who believed that the flu vaccine contained a device that the government could use to track you. The irony is that we worked for a health department. Personally I do not think the government is that organized or capable of pulling off such a conspiracy. My point is that this subject has strong opinions on all sides.

My partner always gets the shot due to a compromised immune system, so I get one to help our household "herd immunity". I would rather have a sore arm and a few days of malaise than get the flu, or have my partner get it and die. To quote the Hunger Games: "May the odds be ever in your favor." It might not work 100%, but I will take that chance.
katgirl55
 
Posts: 677
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:43 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Flu Shot

Postby patty » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:05 pm

I think the real sadness is the Special Needs Children aren't exempt.

http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/pediatric ... alifornia/

Aloha, Patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby bbq » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Both polio vaccines were such a mess and a half, of course we could feel free to ignore or deny that:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-01/news/mn-5328_1_oral-polio-vaccine/3
The lawsuits over polio took an extraordinary turn one year ago when a Kansas jury awarded $2 million in actual damages and $8 million in punitive damages to an Ottawa, Kan., farmer who contracted polio after the immunization of his daughter in 1975. Emil Johnson, now 64, almost died from the polio that has left his breathing permanently impaired.

"It was clear the (vaccine) company was aware of the risks and didn't warn the doctors," said Johnson's lawyer, Gerald L. Michaud of Wichita. "When a jury understands this, that they were at risk and it could happen to them . . . "
bbq
 
Posts: 2168
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby bbq » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:22 pm

bbq
 
Posts: 2168
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby bbq » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:50 pm

This one appeared right before Dr. McDougall's article in Vegetarian Times, it must be a conspiracy then:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lQcAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54
In 1982, both Lea Thompson of WRC-TV in Washington, D.C., and talk-show host Phil Donahue prepared special reports on the dangers of the pertussis vaccine. Within three months of both shows, doctors throughout the country began to report more cases than ever of whooping cough, and the public health departments nationwide began to issue circulars warning of the coming whooping cough epidemic. The American Association of Pediatrics warned that 14,000 children might die from pertussis that year because of the epidemic, although that figure was eventually discarded based on the Centers for Disease Control's less dramatic figure of 400. But was there really an epidemic brewing at all?

Probably not. Although the actual number of pertussis cases does eventually rise when people stop vaccinating their children—this result is obvious in several countries where the pertussis vaccine is no longer required—there are several reasons why even those epidemics may not be all that problematic.

Evidence shows that the number of whooping cough cases rises with decreased vaccination coverage but that it has become an increasingly mild disease, particularly in developed countries where both sanitation and nutrition have improved. In several European countries, although the number of pertussis cases has risen since compulsory vaccination was abandoned, the number of deaths attributed to the disease has dropped. Some suggest that this increasing mildness could be the result of people's naturally enhanced resistance after being exposed to the disease for so many years. The development of antibiotics during this century also has helped to ward off both secondary complications of pertussis—including pneumonia, which can lead to death—and the chance of the disease spreading to other people. In Great Britain, even though the incidence of natural pertussis rose after the drop in vaccine coverage, claims for compensation to the National Health Service virtually halted, indicating that decreased vaccination resulted in a decreased number of neurological damage attributed to the vaccine.
bbq
 
Posts: 2168
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby wade4veg » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:19 pm

bbq wrote:Both polio vaccines were such a mess and a half, of course we could feel free to ignore or deny that:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-01/news/mn-5328_1_oral-polio-vaccine/3
The lawsuits over polio took an extraordinary turn one year ago when a Kansas jury awarded $2 million in actual damages and $8 million in punitive damages to an Ottawa, Kan., farmer who contracted polio after the immunization of his daughter in 1975. Emil Johnson, now 64, almost died from the polio that has left his breathing permanently impaired.

"It was clear the (vaccine) company was aware of the risks and didn't warn the doctors," said Johnson's lawyer, Gerald L. Michaud of Wichita. "When a jury understands this, that they were at risk and it could happen to them . . . "



First of all, that article was written in 1985, over 30 years ago.
Keep in mind that before polio vaccines, tens of thousands of men, women, and especially children were damaged by polio each year back in the 50's. As I mentioned before, I had numerous class mates going to school with me who had the visible damage of polio. Withered limbs, steel clanking braces and walkers. Many others, unable to attend school, spending their days in iron lungs... and faced with decades tied to a machine in order to breathe.

Now read about the reality of your fear of someone getting polio from the vaccine

"From 1980 through 1999, a total of 162 confirmed cases of paralytic poliomyelitis were reported, an average of 8 cases per year. Six cases were acquired outside the United States and imported. The last imported case was reported in 1993. Two cases were classified as indeterminant (no poliovirus isolated from samples obtained from the patients, and patients had no history of recent vaccination or direct contact with a vaccine recipient). The remaining 154 (95%) cases were vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) caused by live oral polio vaccine.
In order to eliminate VAPP from the United States, ACIP recommended in 2000 that IPV be used exclusively in the United States. The last case of VAPP acquired in the United States was reported in 1999. "

Compare that to tens of thousands getting life altering polio when I was in grade school.
I don't know your age, but it appears that so many like you have no concept of being with polio damaged school mates and families.

What is it about iron lungs and useless limbs that you don't understand? Do you think all those pictures of polio victims are made up. Reminds me of Holocaust deniers.
You feel safe now, so you must think all that history was just made up... and could never return.
wade4veg
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Re: Flu Shot

Postby PurplePotato » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:16 am

katgirl55 wrote:Personally I do not think the government is that organized or capable of pulling off such a conspiracy.

How about the mandatory milk programs in schools?
PurplePotato
 
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:12 pm
Location: Hillsboro, OR

Re: Flu Shot

Postby awest27 » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:29 am

People always point to the polio vaccine as a triumph for vaccines. Yet last year, several children were left paralyzed from a virus in the polio class. It was only after the vaccine that the definition of polio was limited to that which was covered by the vaccine. Before that anyone paralyzed from the general class of virus was a victim of polio. Every year there are people being paralyzed while the pro-vaxxers claim that polio was eliminated.
User avatar
awest27
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 1:29 pm

Re: Flu Shot

Postby bbq » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:54 am

More conspiracy from this former Merck sales rep, I'm sure it's just nothing more than a revenge or retaliation of some sort:

http://youtu.be/7YVPkCQxqz4
0:37 a lot of milk, were all vaccinated. My child was always healthy, runny nose free,
0:44 always very, very healthy and smart. If I can digress a little bit this was 1990 so
0:51 the internet wasn't really available. I had read numerous books on vaccines and like most
0:56 people I grew up believing in vaccines from what I was told in school. It became a real
1:01 shock to me when I started reading and learning that vaccines were not only ineffective but
1:08 also there are major risk involved with vaccination. When I found out my wife was pregnant I had
1:16 a discussion with her about not vaccinating and of course she was pro-vaccine and so I
1:22 made her a deal. At the time I worked for a very large pharmaceutical
1:25 company as a sales rep and so I made her a promise I said I'll go to the library I'll
1:31 bring home everything I can find pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine. You can read for yourself
1:37 and then you can make a decision. That's what I did. I went and scoured the periodicals
1:43 in the libraries. I actually found a very small stack of information that was pro-vaccine
1:50 and yet I came home with boxes full of books and articles that were anti-vaccine. I just
1:56 gave them to her and let her make up her own mind.
1:59 I would come home from work and she would be reading the stuff and crying from what
2:04 she was reading. By the time our child was born we were both on the same page about vaccination
2:13 and it was interesting because I had my OBGYN or my wife's OBGYN sit me down in his office
2:20 and say, "Look, you work for a large pharmaceutical company, what do you mean you're not vaccinating?"
2:25 My company actually made a lot of the vaccines and we had a vaccine division and everything
2:30 else and I told them I told them flat out why we went, had a huge discussion about it.
2:37 He didn't agree. We still went to the course that I wanted.
2:41 During a training session with Merck they brought in their corporate attorneys and I
2:46 just happen to ask a question where do most of our lawsuits come from and how large are
2:51 they and so on and one of the attorneys said flat out that most and almost all of our lawsuits
2:59 come from the vaccine division. What I'd like to say to people watching this video is to
3:04 really do your own research, all right? If you're on the fence about vaccines are wondering
3:08 at all, whether to vaccinate your child. Please, please do your own research. There
3:15 are a ton of resources available out there.

And then even more quackery from this former Merck sales rep:

http://youtu.be/LUduiwgHMQs
0:03 My first involvement with the pharmaceutical industry was as a pharmaceutical sales rep
0:07 for Merck back when Vioxx was on the market. I used to rep Vioxx for Merck. When it came
0:17 out that Merck had falsified safety data and Vioxx actually had twice the increase in heart
0:23 attacks and strokes, people taking it, it really made me realize that that there was
0:29 a lot of corruption behind the scenes and that just because something is on the market,
0:34 a drug is on the market, doesn't mean it's safe.
0:38 After working for Merck, I was pretty disillusioned over the whole scandal. I lived in Europe
0:43 for eight years and I had my son over there. I brought him back vaccine-free at six months
0:52 to San Francisco. When I went to a well visit they pushed for vaccines. At that point I
0:58 hadn't done a lot of research in it but I knew enough not to trust pharmaceutical drugs.
1:04 I asked to see a vaccine insert and the doctor got very upset at me and claimed I didn't
1:10 trust him. He stormed out of the room and the nurse let me know that I wasn't really
1:16 welcome back in that clinic anymore. That was a huge red flag for me knowing what I
1:22 knew from being a pharmaceutical sales rep before.

Mighty interesting quote as usual — "I asked to see a vaccine insert and the doctor got very upset at me and claimed I didn't trust him?" That kinda rang a bell and IMHO it's somewhat similar to stuff like this:

Doctors Practice Faith-based Medicine

Doctors believe that what they are doing is beneficial even in the face of clinical and research evidence to the contrary. Visit after visit, their patients with chronic diseases remain fat and sick. The only objective difference from all their hard work and good intentions is that their patients are now carrying around a big bag full of drugs.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/sep/hated.htm

00:03:01 JM: Well, but it's a commentary for almost every general doctor.
00:03:04 You don't understand this, that every family practitioner, GP, internist, and I could go on to some other specialists, they're in the same situation.
00:03:12 They have tools that don't work.
00:03:15 And so we went to school to help people, to make their lives better, and we're given all these pills and some of the surgeries, for chronic disease.
00:03:23 I have to classify that as chronic disease.
00:03:25 Acute problems like if you break something, get in an accident, those kinds of things, we really do a good job with.
00:03:30 But when it comes to chronic illness, we're given these treatments that don't work.
00:03:34 And so you're asked to feel good about yourself as a doctor when you're passing out remedies that have no obvious benefit.
00:03:42 We call that faith-based medicine.
00:03:45 You have to believe that it works because you can't see any evidence that it's working.
00:03:50 (laughter) Honest, I'm not kidding!
00:03:52 GT: We're not talking faith in God here, we're just saying...
00:03:54 JM: Faith-based medicine.
00:03:55 MT: It must work, I'm sure.
00:03:57 JM: The doctors have to believe in it, because the studies say it doesn't work.
00:04:01 The patients have to believe in the doctors, because they see no results in themselves.
00:04:05 It's faith-based medicine.
00:04:06 And every once in a while, doctors like Dr. Lederman and Dr. Pulde say, I've got eyes.
00:04:12 I can see the patients aren't getting any better.
00:04:14 They're still fat and sick.
00:04:15 Something's wrong.
http://www.lifestyle.org/article/111/guide-to-optimum-health-forks-over-knives

It's funny to look back at the beginning of this quack documentary:

http://youtu.be/RwD7MVM-9j4#t=264
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1782426/

They just happened to interview both Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn, I guess that must be a conspiracy as well. LOL
bbq
 
Posts: 2168
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby wade4veg » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:55 am

awest27 wrote:People always point to the polio vaccine as a triumph for vaccines. Yet last year, several children were left paralyzed from a virus in the polio class. It was only after the vaccine that the definition of polio was limited to that which was covered by the vaccine. Before that anyone paralyzed from the general class of virus was a victim of polio. Every year there are people being paralyzed while the pro-vaxxers claim that polio was eliminated.


Yes, yes, you have a great perspective on the issue

1952
"In the United States, the 1952 polio epidemic became the worst outbreak in the nation’s history. Of nearly 58,000 cases reported that year 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis."

vs

2014
"About 20 cases of a polio-like syndrome have been identified in California children over the past 18 months, a Stanford University researcher says."

Goodness yes...EVEN AFTER the polio vaccine has been given, we see 20 people getting a "polio like" syndrome.
Therefore, parents should avoid the polio vaccine because is is clearly a complete failure, when matched against perfection.

We DEMAND perfection before we will submit to such mad medical science.

What wisdom... The same wisdom that brings all of our medical advances... perfection or nothing.
wade4veg
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Re: Flu Shot

Postby wade4veg » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:09 am

bbq wrote:More conspiracy from this former Merck sales rep, I'm sure it's just nothing more than a revenge or retaliation of some sort:

http://youtu.be/7YVPkCQxqz40:37 a lot of milk, were all vaccinated. My child was always healthy, runny nose free,
0:44 always very, very healthy and smart. If I can digress a little bit this was 1990 so
0:51 the internet wasn't really available. I had read numerous books on vaccines and like most
0:56 people I grew up believing in vaccines from what I was told in school. It became a real
1:01 shock to me when I started reading and learning that vaccines were not only ineffective but
1:08 also there are major risk involved with vaccination. When I found out my wife was pregnant I had
1:16 a discussion with her about not vaccinating and of course she was pro-vaccine and so I
1:22 made her a deal. At the time I worked for a very large pharmaceutical
1:25 company as a sales rep and so I made her a promise I said I'll go to the library I'll
1:31 bring home everything I can find pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine. You can read for yourself
1:37 and then you can make a decision. That's what I did. I went and scoured the periodicals
1:43 in the libraries. I actually found a very small stack of information that was pro-vaccine
1:50 and yet I came home with boxes full of books and articles that were anti-vaccine. I just
1:56 gave them to her and let her make up her own mind.
1:59 I would come home from work and she would be reading the stuff and crying from what
2:04 she was reading. By the time our child was born we were both on the same page about vaccination
2:13 and it was interesting because I had my OBGYN or my wife's OBGYN sit me down in his office
2:20 and say, "Look, you work for a large pharmaceutical company, what do you mean you're not vaccinating?"
2:25 My company actually made a lot of the vaccines and we had a vaccine division and everything
2:30 else and I told them I told them flat out why we went, had a huge discussion about it.
2:37 He didn't agree. We still went to the course that I wanted.
2:41 During a training session with Merck they brought in their corporate attorneys and I
2:46 just happen to ask a question where do most of our lawsuits come from and how large are
2:51 they and so on and one of the attorneys said flat out that most and almost all of our lawsuits
2:59 come from the vaccine division. What I'd like to say to people watching this video is to
3:04 really do your own research, all right? If you're on the fence about vaccines are wondering
3:08 at all, whether to vaccinate your child. Please, please do your own research. There
3:15 are a ton of resources available out there.

And then even more quackery from this former Merck sales rep:

0:38 After working for Merck, I was pretty disillusioned over the whole scandal. I lived in Europe
0:43 for eight years and I had my son over there. I brought him back vaccine-free at six months
0:52 to San Francisco. When I went to a well visit they pushed for vaccines. At that point I
0:58 hadn't done a lot of research in it but I knew enough not to trust pharmaceutical drugs.
1:04 I asked to see a vaccine insert and the doctor got very upset at me and claimed I didn't
1:10 trust him. He stormed out of the room and the nurse let me know that I wasn't really
1:16 welcome back in that clinic anymore. That was a huge red flag for me knowing what I
1:22 knew from being a pharmaceutical sales rep before.

Mighty interesting quote as usual — "I asked to see a vaccine insert and the doctor got very upset at me and claimed I didn't trust him?" That kinda rang a bell and IMHO it's somewhat similar to stuff like this:
[/quote]

Boy, you nailed it...

What in the world was Dr. McDougall thinking when he made this 2 minute video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuadrCoPH5Y
wade4veg
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Re: Flu Shot

Postby Gershon » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:01 am

What in the world was Dr. McDougall thinking when he made this 2 minute video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuadrCoPH5Y



Dr. McDougall is precise with his words and I like to watch his videos several times to be sure I understand his intended meaning.

He ends with, "I think you ought to do for your family what you think is best."

That's all I ask: to have the opportunity to discuss what I think is best without having lies made up about me by certain people who have a differing opinion. I've been told I can't use the term "lie," but there is no other word for something that is not true. These aren't accidental lies. These are people making up things which they know are not true. They use terms like "you people" and "unnamed people" to have plausible deniability.

Maybe saying this will get me banned from the forum, but I have no interest in staying someplace where lies are spread with impunity. This is not some internet flame war game. The liars here are winning that one. Is "liar a strong word?" Yes, it is. But there is no other word that fits. I use it because I'm pissed. Maybe pissed is too strong, too. No, it's too weak. I'm beyond pissed. I'm saddened that this sort of thing is happening.

There are real lives at stake here, including mine. If the liars are allowed to continue, then no rational discussion is possible and the truth, whatever it is, will be hidden. Perhaps the vaccines are safe, but I will not make my decision based on those who call me names and lie about what I'm thinking. Nor will I stand silently while the lies are spread.

The vaccines need to be addressed on a case by case basis. Just because one vaccine is safe doesn't mean they all are. It seems like the pharmaceutical industry is releasing new vaccines in waves, and they are coming without information. I have no reason to believe that doctors who sell cures that are not cures are suddenly selling real cures through vaccines. Perhaps I could be convinced, but not by personal attacks.

Sometimes people have to take a stand which has undesirable results. This is one of those times. The liars have won and lost at the same time. Perhaps they have succeeded in eliminating one of their opponents from the arena. But they have also succeeded in developing a more strongly developed opinion against vaccines.
User avatar
Gershon
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:25 am
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Flu Shot

Postby dailycarbs » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:10 am

wade4veg wrote:
What in the world was Dr. McDougall thinking when he made this 2 minute video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuadrCoPH5Y


Takeaways
    • Throughout history, 3 things have changed the incidence of disease: better sanitation, better nutrition, immunization.
    • Immunization has been proved to be effective at changing the incidence of disease.
    • All his children and grandchildren are fully immunized. (No exception for "scary" polio vaccine.)
dailycarbs
 
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:19 am

Re: Flu Shot

Postby WyldMoonWoman » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:55 am

Nurses are being fired all over the country for refusing to comply with forced vaccination and this is why....
http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/are-mandatory-flu-vaccines-for-healthcare-workers-part-of-obamacare-and-linked-to-financial-reimbursement-to-healthcare-facilities/

I am also now forced to wear a sticker on my name tag that states I was vaccinated....this is a direct violation of the HIPAA laws that are supposed to protect my private healthcare information. I refused to put the sticker on my name tag and was told to suck it up and wear it. I think it's bullying and using peer pressure tactics. I took the shot...it's not good enough...now I have to be tagged :(
All Love, All the Time
Lisa
User avatar
WyldMoonWoman
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:30 pm
Location: Nomadic, Currently Newville, NY

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.