Garth Davis, Proteinaholic

[baardmk]

StarchHEFP, that was very well argued. StarchHEFP for surgeon general!

Are you, on the top of your head, aware of major medical bodies who advice against or at least are very skeptical towards these procedures? Seems to be a shame if there weren't.

[StarchHEFP]

StarchHEFP, that was very well argued. StarchHEFP for surgeon general!

Are you, on the top of your head, aware of major medical bodies who advice against or at least are very skeptical towards these procedures? Seems to be a shame if there weren't.

Thanks!

Yes - that would be Dr. John McDougall as well as most all the other plant-based doctors (except Dr. Garth Davis)

Also, American College of Lifestyle Medicine is generally against convential medicine's

Emphasis on making a diagnosis and treatment with pharmaceuticals or surgery

and for

Emphasis on promoting behavior changes that allow the body to heal itself.
-Focus on evidence-based optimal nutrition, stress management and fitness prescriptions
-Patients are active partners in their care
-Treats the underlying lifestyle causes of disease
-Physician/Provider educates, guides and supports patients to make behavior changes
-Medications used as an adjunct to therapeutic lifestyle changes
-Patient’s home and community environment are assessed as contributing factors..

http://www.lifestylemedicine.org/standards

Here is Dr. David Katz view: http://www.davidkatzmd.com/admin/archives/gastric%20bypass.Times.8-26-07.doc

Unfortunately the official line from the powers that be is this, try a low carb diet, or WW/Nutrisystem/Jenny, exercise, then try drugs (take your pick from a dozen), and usually the previous do not work at all, so just refer them to a surgeon to rearrange the intestines. See this article:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAAahUKEwjF-ejV3vvHAhVIMz4KHUAfArQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pceconsortium.org%2Fdocuments%2Fmanagementobesityadults.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFqoAutAt6EPDWddxrGrOtNDS-clA&sig2=qIt0xHISDt_jOkSOCMY8dA

As far as I can see, no one is recommending a multidisciplinary comprehensive obesity management residential treatment program utilizing a WFPB type diet. Medicare does cover an Intensive Cardiac Rehab program utilizing the Ornish program (plant based diet, exercise, yoga/meditation, psychology). Why not try this approach for obesity?

[BlueHeron]

StarchHEFP, glad to see you make the frontal lobotomy comparison. I've been saying for years that weight loss surgery is today's version of that. I think that is the procedure that people will look back on in 100 years and say, can you believe they used to do that?

However, I also think that the severely obese need a lot more support than our culture is willing to give them and a lot more recognition of the psychological problems. Most people on a SAD diet do not get up to 600 pounds. There is clearly something going on with these people that we don't fully understand. Not everyone can just decide to make a change and do so.

[dteresa]

I just had a cantaloupe size ovarian cyst containing a liter of fluid removed along with the ovary it was growing on. I believe they really might tell you the possible consequences. They give me a consent form to sign after seeing the surgeon. I went into his nurse's office and she explained the procedure and had me look at about 15 or so papers. The consent form was among them. I was very flustered and thought I read the consent form that I signed. A few days later I realized I probably had not and went back to the office and requested a copy of the consent form I signed. When I got home I read it and I cannot adequately explain to you my physical reaction to what I had signed. There was a very long list of what could go wrong during the surgery. Everything from possibly needing a colostomy to bladder damage and that was only the beginning. Had I not consented I guess the other choice was to not have the surgery which I definitely needed.

My heart pounded heavily and I had a hard time breathing. I felt light headed and was shaking. I called my daughter and drove to her house. She calmed me down and said for a procedure she had that she had signed something similar. She said the chances for those dire things happening were slim but they had to cover their fannies, just in case. It was, however a lot different from a bariatric by pass though because that procedure was elective and mine was not.

I did notice on the consent form that I could refuse consent to certain things. I had just read colin campbell's book concerning his wife's melanoma in which she refused, on his advice, to have any lymph glands removed. I wrote a letter to the surgeon and hand delivered it to request that, regardless of what he found or what the pathologist said, that he would not remove or do anything to the lymph glands. On the day of the surgery he agreed to this. I have a follow up visit in a couple of weeks and will find out what the pathologist said. There was something in the cyst tissue. But we will see what the surgeon plans. I am not a very good or compliant patient.

I do think that a patient should take home a consent form, read it carefully and then have the opportunity to discuss it with the surgeon. And not sign it in the office or just before surgery. Kind of reminds me of having a baby when you are handed a consent form while you are in heavy labor. You will sign anything just to get that baby out and into the world and stop the pain.

didi

[dteresa]

Bye the way, there is a large population of overweight and obese people who are members of NAAFA who do not like to go to physicians who comment on their weight. They purposely look for doctors who just accept their weight, as they do, and do not try to change them or harp on it during an office visit. I think it is like avoiding a doctor who tells you to quit smoking when you visit his office for your emphysema.

These NAAFA members insist that there is HAES or health at every size and because you are fat does not mean you are unhealthy.

didi

[BlueHeron]

Bye the way, there is a large population of overweight and obese people who are members of NAAFA who do not like to go to physicians who comment on their weight. They purposely look for doctors who just accept their weight, as they do, and do not try to change them or harp on it during an office visit. I think it is like avoiding a doctor who tells you to quit smoking when you visit his office for your emphysema.

These NAAFA members insist that there is HAES or health at every size and because you are fat does not mean you are unhealthy.

didi

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. A lot of obese people report being told to lose weight and basically being denied other treatment no matter what they go to see the doctor about. While weight loss is a good long-term strategy, when you have a strep infection, it's not going to help. Also, given the type of weight-loss advice given by doctors, I can't really blame people for deciding they just don't want to hear it anymore. Doctors routinely recommend weight-loss strategies that simply do not work. They tell people who weigh 300 pounds to count calories or join Weight Watchers or have surgery. And the changes you need to lose weight, including by following the McDougall plan, are much more complicated and, in some ways, more difficult than quitting smoking. So the medical community, with very few exceptions, really has nothing to offer these people. I don't blame anyone for wanting to opt out of that.

[Skip]

Bariatric surgery is a risk/reward decision that can only be made by the patient. I don't discredit Dr. Davis because he performs these operations even though he knows there is a better solution for his patients. I'm sure Dr. Davis presents all of the options to his patients, especially the option of opting out of the surgery and switching to a plant based diet.

[StarchHEFP]

Bye the way, there is a large population of overweight and obese people who are members of NAAFA who do not like to go to physicians who comment on their weight. They purposely look for doctors who just accept their weight, as they do, and do not try to change them or harp on it during an office visit. I think it is like avoiding a doctor who tells you to quit smoking when you visit his office for your emphysema.

These NAAFA members insist that there is HAES or health at every size and because you are fat does not mean you are unhealthy.

didi

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. A lot of obese people report being told to lose weight and basically being denied other treatment no matter what they go to see the doctor about. While weight loss is a good long-term strategy, when you have a strep infection, it's not going to help. Also, given the type of weight-loss advice given by doctors, I can't really blame people for deciding they just don't want to hear it anymore. Doctors routinely recommend weight-loss strategies that simply do not work. They tell people who weigh 300 pounds to count calories or join Weight Watchers or have surgery. And the changes you need to lose weight, including by following the McDougall plan, are much more complicated and, in some ways, more difficult than quitting smoking. So the medical community, with very few exceptions, really has nothing to offer these people. I don't blame anyone for wanting to opt out of that.

On the subject of consent, before I had brain surgery, I read a book by a neurosurgeon who said that the doctor who trained her told her that if the patient wasn't crying by the time he/she signed the consent form, she hadn't explained the risks well enough.

I wouldn't deny anyone any treatment, just make sure they are properly informed. That last part about consent, that's so different for elective procedures vs. lifesaving procedures. No one should cry after consent, but make a thoughtful, careful decision based on facts. I think a proper consent should take about 15 minutes, and also be done by 2 doctors (the surgeon as well as the PCP), someone who doesn't have money to gain! As far as extreme obesity, telling someone to "just follow a diet" is like telling an addict to "just quit" - they need so much support, shame on the medical establishment for not offering something better! Of course, with the exception of programs like McDougall and Pritikin which do, but not everyone has the luxury to go there. So many weight loss clinics in Chicago just shuttle patients in and out and hand them a bottle of pills. They should spend at least 1-2 hours a visit with them! And for the binge eaters, now we have "Vyvanse" but patients don't go to a program for it!

[smudgemom]

I just don't see a baratric physician any different than the thousands of physicians pushing pills. It's just a Band-aid.

I come to a GP, obese & high blood pressure. They COULD say lose weight, but they push pills.
I come to a baratric clinic, obese & high blood pressure. They COULD say lose weight, but they cut me open. Same difference.

Garth Davis is a good-looking guy that interviews well, so his message will always be 'heard'. But like I said in a previous post, he doesn't have enough tread on the tires to be taken seriously or on the level of McDougall/Esselstyn/Barnard, etc.

Only 7 years ago, he was pushing low carb...even wrote a book about it. Who's to say 7 years from now he won't flip back to LCHF? I would have much more respect if he would personally and professionally 'walk the talk'. Until then, thank but no thanks.

I'm smart enough to think 'all news is good news' about this WOE. More people talking about it, the better. Like I said earlier, Garth Davis is a good looking guy that interviews well. His message will be heard with different ears for many different people. If he gains the popularity, the hypocrisy between his professional/personal life will come to life...and could hurt the original LFWFPB message McDougall/Esselstyn, etc has worked so hard to obtain.

[AnnaSpanna]

I've been following him for a while on facebook and he's admitted he was wrong with his low carb approach. Can't we cut him some slack and allow that sometimes we mess up and then later see the light?

Go have a look at his fb page. He's very passionate about the WFPB life. I don't see him defecting back to the other side. True I don't have a crystal ball and have no way of knowing what the future brings but I'm pretty sure he's Team Plants for the long haul.

[katgirl55]

I like Dr. Garth and hope he does well in this new direction. I think his charisma and knowledge can be very helpful in getting the message out. I do not think his other career will make much difference, and will not undermine Dr. McDougall and Dr. Esselstyn's messages.

[StarchHEFP]

I've seen Dr. Garth Davis' videos and they seem completely in-congruent with the information presented on the Davis Clinic website, which gives the impression that you can try diet and weight loss, but you won't succeed. He must live in 2 different worlds because at the Davis Clinic, there is no mention of plant-based approaches to weight loss on their website, not even a link to Dr. Garth Davis' book! Here is the information presented on the website. I face the dilemma every day and the frustration of patients not getting on board with lifestyle changes, and then prescribing expensive medications to take care of conditions that lifestyle changes will solve. Most frustrating is smoking! I am prescribing inhalers, and meanwhile they smoke. He must face the same dilemma every day with weight loss, but it would be nice to include a link to Dr. John McDougall or at least acknowledge that there is a plant-based approach, and at least sell Dr. Garth Davis' book.

If you suffer from morbid obesity, you know the cycle all too well. You diet and lose weight only to gain back the weight you’d lost (and more). It feels as if you’re always walking up a down escalator, never making progress. With each passing year, another 10 … 20 … 30 pounds is gained, and while your body grows larger, your world grows smaller and smaller. The result of losing and gaining weight time and time again is a “yo-yo” dieting syndrome which slows down your body’s metabolism – the rate at which you can burn fat. This cycle increases your risk of serious health conditions, and simply put, does not work. Along with your discouragement comes frustration, followed by feelings of guilt and shame. And the cycle starts all over again.
You are not alone and obesity is not your fault.
Consider these facts:
People on diets, exercise programs or weight loss medications are able to lose approximately ten percent of their excess body weight, but tend to regain two-thirds of that weight within one year, and almost all of the weight is regained within five years.1
Less than five percent of people in weight loss programs are able to maintain their weight loss after five years.2

So what can be done?
Weight loss surgery has been proven to be an appropriate and successful treatment for the disease of obesity.3 In fact, surgical treatment for the disease of obesity is the only proven solution for long-term weight loss and resolution of co-morbidities and associated diseases or conditions caused by obesity.
At The Davis Clinic, we specialize in providing individuals with the most current weight loss surgery procedures available today because it works. Our results speak for themselves.

[BlueHeron]

I agree that the Davis Clinic website is disturbing and incongruous with what he says elsewhere. I follow him on Twitter, and everything he writes there is in favor of a plant-based diet. According to the website, they are working on a health and nutrition section. It will be interesting to see what it says.

I don't know what he's thinking - and I don't mean that in a snarky way. He hasn't addressed surgery in the interviews I've heard with him. I think weight loss surgery is insane, and it doesn't make sense to say it's for people who don't want to change their lifestyles - it requires a huge change in lifestyle, and honest bariatric surgeons will admit that. I think it comes off in the popular imagination as a magic fix, and Dr. Davis is in a perfect position to create a program that will truly help the extremely obese. I tend to think he means well, and I hope to eventually see a difference in the way he practices medicine. I'm sure that weight loss surgery is very lucrative. I really hope that's not what's keeping him from changing his practice.

I wonder how a weight loss clinic that focused on a plant-based diet would work. It could feature extensive counseling, education, and assistance for patients - maybe even a long-term live-in program. It would be tough to get insurance to cover it. Insurance programs are covering Dr. Ornish's program, but it took a very long time despite his excellent study results published in highly regarded journals. Would such a program be economically feasible? Dr. McDougall and the folks at True North are making similar programs work. I'd love to see Dr. Davis take the lead on this.

[colonyofcells]

Protein is back :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 080629.htm

[patty]

Protein is back :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 080629.htm

hmmmmm It is like Dr. McDougall shares The Part 2 Obesity video, the cow is the elephant in the room. In actuality the cash cow of the planet:) The surrogate mother we have all been nursed and raised on:) It takes total anarchy:)

Aloha, patty