Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby patty » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:33 am

Jack Monzon wrote:This man sickens me. I hope his career is in ruins.


Just have to out shoot him with love. He must have never known the love of a animal. Holding my dog, and cats close. The only reason I purchased a home, was so i could have a animal. The world is inside of us. Rip Cecil

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby Jumpstart » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:03 am

Kill 1.2 million babies a year....well that's ok. Kill a lion....let's hang the guy.
Jumpstart
 
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:32 pm

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby f1jim » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:16 am

It's possible to go through life not seeing the hypocrisy of certain situations. That doesn't make people evil, just unaware, or enlightened.
How many of us consumed dairy for decades without giving a thought to the origins of our food. If you are like most of us you grew up separating the animal products in our food from the ethics about eating them. That didn't make us evil, just unenlightened. Is it a crime to be unenlightened? This dentist probably grew up thinking capturing trophy animals for his wall was no different than eating animals for food. If he was poaching that's a crime. But being clueless about the sanctity of another living creature I don't see as criminal, only ignorant.
Do we condemn the people here on this website that still consume small amounts of animal products as evil? Or do we see them as unenlightened? There is a large difference in perspective. Do we all draw the line in different places?
Is the lion trophy hunter "better" than the guy eating a bologna sandwich? Is the roast beef sandwich eater "better" than the hunter that takes the prized elk?
I'm probably piXXing off everybody in trying to make this point but it's what I am feeling at the moment. I was sad to learn of the lions demise. I am just as sad at the millions of chickens, pigs, goats, and cattle killed every year. I make the argument that they died for no good reason. Isn't that the same with the lion? Tell me what I am missing? Skips original post says it all succinctly.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby Wildapple » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:21 am

Yes, I agree that killing the lion and eating meat is hypocrisy, but what is even more so is what jumpstart mentioned the killing of babies every year in the name of "a woman's right to choose." There has hardly been bleep on the news of Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Selling human parts is illegal in the US, but PP is getting away with it in the name of "a woman's right to choose." That is the real hypocrisy.
User avatar
Wildapple
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 7:07 pm
Location: Down Home

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby dailycarbs » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:34 am

Wildapple wrote:There has hardly been bleep on the news of Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Selling human parts is illegal in the US, but PP is getting away with it in the name of "a woman's right to choose." That is the real hypocrisy.


Hardly a bleep? Only if you never turn on the TV, the Internet, or open a paper. It's everywhere!

Abortion is legal. The fetal tissue from the abortion will be discarded unless used in research. The research is for infant and childhood diseases and the process is all controlled by laws. This is not some shadowy human parts trafficking operation. I bet that if you overheard an edited conversation of doctors discussing an accident victim's organs about to be donated you'd be against organ donation.

Lastly, this is about Cecil and animal rights. If you want to instigate an abortion debate, please start a separate thread, properly titled.

Thank you for your consideration.

Edit: fixed spelling
Last edited by dailycarbs on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
dailycarbs
 
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:19 am

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby BlueHeron » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:36 am

Those of us over fifty have seen huge changes in issues of justice in our own lifetimes. When I was a child, want ads in the newspaper were split into jobs for women and jobs for men, and it was perfectly acceptable to pay women less for doing the same job or to refuse to hire women at all because they were just going to get married and have babies. Homosexual acts were punishable by jail time. Racism still exists today, but it is not socially acceptable as it once was.

Issues of animal rights are finally making it into the mainstream. During my childhood, no one would have questioned wearing a fur coat - this is still acceptable in some circles today, but less than it used to be. A lot of people seek out what they call "humane meat." Of course, there is no such thing, but I think the popularity of that speaks to at least an acknowledgment that animals have feelings and emotions that we should respect. I don't think anyone would have thought twice about trophy hunting when I was a child and certainly not about hunting for food, though we cheered on Bugs Bunny when he escaped Elmer Fudd. One thing I have learned from this incident with Cecil is that trophy hunting is no longer widely socially acceptable. I did read one article claiming that eating meat was different because people need protein. It is a bogus argument, of course, but it shows a recognition that the issue exists.

This dentist said he would cooperate with authorities, but he has not done that, so there are other ethical issues with him in particular. Whether he really believed the hunt was legal is something we will probably never know.

But even though it's disheartening to see people refuse to connect the protected lion with the meat on their plate, I think this is progress of a kind. Perhaps my grandchildren will someday see a world where a cow's life is worth as much as a lion's. We can always hope.
User avatar
BlueHeron
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby patty » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:16 pm

Some people believe that animals are higher than people. Does that mean they exclude killing animals? No. Indigenous people integrate with nature. Is the man who shot Cecil indigenous? No, he is a coward.

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby baardmk » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:11 pm

Poetic justice in another case involving an armadillo
https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/ ... 4677218305
User avatar
baardmk
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby baardmk » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:00 pm

Many are dismayed by the attention this case gets. I want to try to explain/defend this.

The case has some qualities many other cases don't

A) locality/closeness
B) uncomplicated story *
C) a very clear-cut bad guy/act much by virtue of power/position

Should he/his act be condemned? SURE!! Nobody, pretty much, would disagree with this. The importance of condemnation and the big attention is that people stop engaging in (hopefully) taboo activities like this ever again. There are lots of US/European hunters which needs to change behaviour. It's not just this lion and this man, but this case alone is bad enough that people like Schwarzenegger et al. justifiably reacts.

When there's this whole story with pictures and the extra layers of "evilness", sure there will be more outrage, but even if all of those details were missing and no outrage ensued, doesn't make it wrong to react when all factors converge in that once per ten thousand cases, or what-have-you.

Does this case take away attention better spent on other cases? Well sure; time spent is equal to time wasted on all other things. But that argument should be put up against all other potential news/media stories, and tallying up the scores of what's worth the time isn't a one-dimensional scoresheet, like in sports...

That being said, I think you should know about this news (unrelated):
‘Sea Slaves’: The Human Misery That Feeds Pets and Livestock

* News stories of wars/conflicts/politics etc. are usually complicated and depressing. In a way this story isn't becasue public opinion may be effective and it's on a relevant scale people can relate to.
User avatar
baardmk
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby txveggie » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:12 am

It is easier for us to be upset about a single person or animal's plight than a multitude. I was amazed that a friend on Facebook posted about the lion and how upset she was when she has animal rugs and trophy animals stuffed in her home. Talk about disconnect.
txveggie
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:26 am

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby f1jim » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:18 am

I wonder how the numbers play into it, if at all.
For instance, if you eat 20% of your calories from animal products are you 80% outraged over the lion killing? 90% if you only eat 10% animal products? If you only eat meat on weekends does guilt only affect you on weekends?
Or can one completely look at the killing of the lion as entirely separate, ethically, from the killing of animals for meat? I used to. Now I have trouble isolating one from the other. I could justify hunting if I was eating the meat. Now that I don't eat meat I don't have that justification. Now I would no more go hunting than jump off the Golden Gate bridge. Both seem meaningless to me.
I guess if I ate some meat I would have to justify it in some way. It's the natural order? Some meat is necessary for my well being?
I couldn't just say I don't give a darn. That would seem heartless. (sic)
It just seems like it's more politically correct to rage about the lion than to vent about eating meat. Maybe we just are not there yet as a society. At least the majority of us.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby EvanG » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:48 am

The World Wildlife Federation (WWF) and PETA are different organization with different agendas. WWF is worried about endangered wildlife, increasing habitat and decreasing slaughter of endangered and other wild species. PETA is worried about the ethics of raising and killing animals to eat. While both issues (killing endangered animals, and killing farm-raised animals) pose ethical questions, the questions are different. So, I do not find any hypocrisy in people condemning the killing of endangered animals while not worrying about killing farm animals.

If the issue of killing farm animals is important to you (PETA issues), then it should be argued on it's own merit. It shouldn't be piggy-backed onto the issue of endangered species.
-----
Started in June 2012 at 39
Lost 25 lbs. Feel great.
EvanG
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:15 am

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby f1jim » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:51 am

You cannot separate the two issues. Why are many species endangered? Why is habitat being depleted? Raising animals to feed the world is integral to the issue of endangered species.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby BlueHeron » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:56 am

PETA is concerned with all exploitation of animals, not only farmed animals. Like many animal rights groups, PETA sees these issues as the same. The belief is that animals' lives are valid in themselves. Animals do not exist for our purposes - whether that purpose is the pleasure of taste, the pleasure of entertainment (e.g., circuses, Sea World), or the pleasure of hanging a trophy on a wall.

People who are upset about it are upset because they see the distinction in itself as hypocritical. If you operate from the philosophy that animals do not exist for us to use, there is no difference between Cecil the lion and a factory farmed chicken.
User avatar
BlueHeron
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: Lion is shot --- hypocrisy of it

Postby AnnGriff » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:37 am

dailycarbs wrote:
Wildapple wrote:There has hardly been bleep on the news of Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Selling human parts is illegal in the US, but PP is getting away with it in the name of "a woman's right to choose." That is the real hypocrisy.


Hardly a bleep? Only if you never turn on the TV, the Internet, or open a paper. It's everywhere!

Abortion is legal. The fetal tissue from the abortion will be discarded unless used in research. The research is for infant and childhood diseases and the process is all controlled by laws. This is not some shadowy human parts trafficking operation. I bet that if you overheard an edited conversation of doctors discussing an accident victim's organs about to be donated you'd be against organ donation.

Lastly, this is about Cecil and animal rights. If you want to instigate an abortion debate, please start a separate thread, properly titled.

Thank you for your consideration.

Edit: fixed spelling


Having been in on many conversations with families and physicians on organ donation and taking care of the patient while waiting for their organs to be donated, it is nothing like what PP is doing starting with the fact that the family or patient consciously made the decision to donate. You cannot compare what PP is doing with organ donation.

But back to the topic of this thread. I think because Cecil has a name it becomes personal and social media made him the popular hashtag of the week. My heart hurts that this lion was needlessly killed. I do find it somewhat funny but alarming at the same time how easily the general public is brought to arms over a lion when there is sex trafficking and childhood hunger and many other causes that all this energy could go towards. The people of Zimbabwe must think we as a country are nuts.
Andrea
AnnGriff
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:00 am
Location: Lexington, SC

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.