KISS

[Debbie]

The simple short answer....keep it simple, I always added stupid, but Im sure there is a nicer way to put it. LOL

Why does there seem to be this push to complicate this way of eating? In that I mean....Dr. McDougall has this all lined out for us. What we *should* eat for health, what we should *not* eat to avoid ill health. Then there is the gray matter....No, not the gray matter that is between our ears.....the gray area, the not so black and white area. Everything we need to avoid ill health, regain health or stay in good health is offered here FOR FREE!!!

On the main site, Dr. McDougall has offered his plan totally for free, including a very thorough explanation of it all, how to do it and what you need. Without ever having to even purchase a single book or talk. But dang it! That is just not good enough. We, as humans, have this seemingly insatiable appetite to over complicate everything........Sure, not everyone can or should eat any sugar, but its not the monster some make it out to be. Same with nuts. Not everyone can or should eat them, whether in a sauce or on top of a salad. Just like some can't eat wheat/gluten. Just because a food item/ingredient is allowed do NOT mean everyone can or should eat it.

Does paying for that exact same information make following it easier when you have to pay for it? Does it make it more logical? Does it make it more "legit"? So when a plan comes out in a paid version that says ditch sugar and nuts or ditch sugar and nuts and all dried fruits but eat 2 or so pounds of veggies a day and/or use eyrithritol in place of sugar, does that make Dr. M's plan not valid? I broke down the cost of the 2lbs of veggies, for me the cheapest store brand non organic for my hubby and I would be about a quarter of our monthly food budget, and that does NOT include any starches or food for my children. Whereas I can buy 10 pounds of potatoes and it only costs about 25 bucks and will feed us all. THEN add some veggies and fruits to that....hey, that sounds just like Dr. McDougalls plan....starch based with the addition of fruits and veggies. But perhaps I should over complicate it and pay $30-$100 per month to have someone tell me to not eat sugar. If that sounds snarky, it sort of is.....Im frustrated how muddy the waters are anymore.

Yes they are all more alike than different. But why make it so complicated and expensive?

I guess what I dont understand is, why pay for information that is already given for free? And better yet....why are there people giving so much air time for these other paid plans (UWL, Protective Diet, HH etc) why are they talking so much about them on Dr. McDougall's site he hosts and runs along with all the admins, FOR FREE!!! Why?

Why cant someone just say hey...sugar doesnt work for me and stop eating it? Even though its not really the monster so many are making it to be. Just dont eat something, even if its "allowed".

And Dr. McDougall has been doing this for what, 4 decades??? So some come in with a few years experience, they are not doctors, they are not registered dietians, like Jeff, Yet they tell people HOW to eat and give out medical advice....basically anonymously over the internet. And they are making boat loads of money doing it. I am not against anyone making a living helping people. Hell, I can lose all my weight and decide cause I included or took away a particular allowed food, I can charge for it too.

And for people like me, who have struggled for a long time keeping just to the simplicity of the plan, when someone starts posting other versions, it makes me go oooh, maybe that will be the trick....no shut up Debbie...you know the plan works, you just have to work the plan, stop making exceptions that become very slippery slopes and keep it simple stupid.

In all my years being on this board, I can grab 10 or more profiles that have been around for just as many years, mine included, that as long as we stick to the plan we have success and when we dont, we struggle and when we start looking for over complicated versions of this plan we suddenly succeed for a while....but for how long? Maybe some will stick to it, maybe some will tire of it and be back to where they began.

Some starch add to that some veggies and fruits and KISS!!!

[Wild4Stars]

I so agree with you Debbie. It is kind of baffling why people jump on the bandwagon, change a few things, charge a monthly fee and now suddenly it is better than what is here absolutely free - ?? Seriously?

I love Dr. McDougall. I don't need to pay a chef or a cooking school grad to interpret what is here so that I can pay them to tell me how to eat. I get it straight from the horses mouth.

[colonyofcells]

I keep it simple by following the whole philosophy of T Colin Campbell and I do my best to avoid reductionist talk like a nutritionist. I try to avoid talking about protein, fat, vitamins, cholesterol, saturated fat, etc. (except for maybe vitamin b12) so I save lots of time by avoiding reductionist studies and reductionist debates. Just saw a video of a popular vegan nutritionist who recommends protein powders bec. of the reductionist mentality. I also avoid debates about unrefined vegan foods like nuts, seeds, avocado, coconuts, etc. which are found in the traditional diets. I also avoid the 0% animals vs 5% animals debate since most healthy traditional diets are not vegan and the pritikin diet is probably the most influential diet even for most vegan diets. I don't mind rich people eating more fruits or eating more grass fed beef. Many of the diets are also quite similar so there's probably no need to do debates about Maximum Weight Loss vs Utter Weight Loss. It is ok for others to make money out of the old pritikin diet by changing it a little bit or by adding portion control since everyone needs to make a living somehow.

[Wild4Stars]

The real issue is people who take Dr. McDougall's principles, make a few minor changes then charge a monthly fee to tell people how to eat. Why? It's all here, it's all free and someone is making money off of Dr. McDougall's plan. I just don't get it. Some people apparently have more money than sense.

[Dougalling]

KISS Keep It Simple Silly(one)

[scooterpie]

If someone could please post "for pay" Esselstyn/McD "clone sites" NOT administered by WOMEN, I would appreciate it. How about Jeff Novick--he charges for his services and while the above (UWL, HH and protective) are not in dietetics professionals AFAIK, but there's also no law against what they're doing. Ye Olde Internet is still the wild, wild west.

These are people who are just as passionate about this as anyone--maybe moreso--they've taken the time to figure out how to make a buck. No sour grapes from me:-) I haven't read all the plans, but I'd bet they stick pretty darn close to the purity of this plan (or Esselstyn's). And then there's word of mouth from people who enjoy success--that has ripple effects and since the usual plant-based suspects:-) all have books, they in turn stand to benefit from ANYONE promoting and mentioning their names and diets.

Some people like to pay for things that are available for free or can be accomplished on a DIY basis. It may seem easier somehow in the head or timewise. Big deal. People also like to wait in lines and buy brand names for items that are just as good in the generic or store-brand form. There's also the issue of support. If the best place to find support for some people is a pay site, so be it. It's no skin off my back!

I wouldn't fight it--the more the merrier. I don't see Dr McDougall complaining about it on here or in any videos that I recall:-)

Here's a quote from "protective diet's" page: I'm so grateful Jane Esselstyn took the time to write to me and say "We are all on the front of this movement. Keep going forward."

I don't think this is much of an issue in the main. Your point is well-made Debbie and it's good to bring it up--thanks!

[colonyofcells]

Most of the disciples of Dr mcdougall and Dr Esselstyn seem to concentrate on recipes. If a fireman can make money out of a unrefined vegan diet, anybody can.

[Debbie]

When we compare those like HH, PD, UWL to professionals like Jeff, Dr. McDougall, Essy, etc, because they lost some weight, we are in trouble.

As for Rip.... Rip doesn't run a program where he teaches. Instead, he brings in his dad, Jeff, Doug, Colin etc, to teach the program.

We have to be really careful where we get our health info from....

AJ is a chef, a very good one might I add, but she is not an RD etc.

Julie Marie is not a chef or RD, she took the Ecornell course.

HH, well Im just not really sure, but she does have some really good recipes.

All three have lost some weight and regained their health and that is very commendable. But they are charging a lot of money with no real education behind them. I know Dr. M's plan like the back of my hand, dont you think it would be questionable that I would charge people for coaching etc with no formal education in nutrition? This is no different. Im not knocking it....but anyone can drop a bunch of weight, that doesnt make one an expert in the field....^shrug^

[colonyofcells]

There are people who believe life coaching is a scam. In america, you can pretty much make money out of anything. Nathan Pritikin was self taught but he managed to influence most of the current vegan gurus including some paleo gurus. On the paleo side, Denise MInger is pretty much self taught and even T Colin Campbell found it hard to believe that somebody trained in english could debate him. Denise Minger is smart altho she probably could've avoided some mistakes if she had read more about statistics. It is also possible to read about statistics on your own without a school. Being good in english is probably enough to read nutrition studies. In this age of short attention spans, people with communication skills who can explain everything simply will probably be more influential and might even become president of america. In the field of computers, the field changes every year so have to do lots of self learning every year. Most of the doctors who teach nutrition are pretty much self taught on nutrition. The exception is maybe Dr Terry Shintani who has a law degree, a medical degree and a nutrition degree. I have seen lots of youtube videos and many people are giving nutrition advice and most of the advice is pretty good : former ranch owner, vegan athletes, chemistry professor, cooks, ethical vegans, environmentalists, housewives, chiropractors, etc.

[Debbie]

I am a professionally trained school bus driver. But that does not make me qualified to teach math or language arts. I can use a pair of scissors pretty smartly, but that does not make me qualified to cut someone's hair.

In the case of Denise, she has enough education and natural smarts and logical based thinking, putting together a debate wouldnt be hard. She may have been in the debate club in high school. Being able to debate would not make one qualified to give nutritional advice.

All these other "plans" are versions of Dr. M's plan with distractions. Complications.

[colonyofcells]

It is possible to learn pretty much any field on your own. The only thing preventing qualified amateurs from practicing are legal blocks created by the professional groups that have lobbied the government to protect these professions from competition from amateurs. In the professional practice of nutrition, the regulation of nutrition workers varies from state to state and California seems quite lax and pretty much anybody in California can make a living in nutrition. In many fields, it can be obvious that often, the amateurs are much better than even the professionals such as in the field of paleontology which has lots of highly qualified amateurs. In many fields, amateur geniuses are welcomed such as in math and science. My former landlord cut the hair of all his children and I probably could've paid him $10 to cut my hair. I can probably be a tutor in math and english if somebody wants to hire me. If I learn from an ophthalmologist, I might even learn how to do cataract operations. It probably does not require high IQ to teach people to eat starches, vegetables, and fruits. I am not a chef but pretty much anybody can create recipes and sell recipes. I don't believe there's any professional regulations preventing somebody who is not a chef from selling recipes.

[MarionP]

Whereas I can buy 10 pounds of potatoes and it only costs about 25 bucks and will feed us all.

Sorry for reducing your post to this one sentence, but I can't get that price out of my mind. I've never, ever paid more than 4 bucks for a ten pound bag of potatoes. And you find them cheap at 25 bucks?

[VeggieSue]

As for Rip.... Rip doesn't run a program where he teaches. Instead, he brings in his dad, Jeff, Doug, Colin etc, to teach the program.

Rip does have a paid program site, the Engine 2 Extra one. His father, mother, sister, etc. have nothing to do with it - he has 2 paid "coaches" (one a boxing instructor who runs a gym and IDK what the other one does in "real life"), and about a dozen vounteers who also assist, sort of like the Star McDougallers here. The site offers a weird form of forums and blogs, and sections with a references library, videos (pulled from all around the Internet, mostly, including Dr. McD and Jeff's), and some telephone interviews and their transcipts.

[patty]

Whereas I can buy 10 pounds of potatoes and it only costs about 25 bucks and will feed us all.

Sorry for reducing your post to this one sentence, but I can't get that price out of my mind. I've never, ever paid more than 4 bucks for a ten pound bag of potatoes. And you find them cheap at 25 bucks?

When you put the sentence into context... what she is saying is within a 25 dollar range it would also would include some vegetables.

I broke down the cost of the 2lbs of veggies, for me the cheapest store brand non organic for my hubby and I would be about a quarter of our monthly food budget, and that does NOT include any starches or food for my children. Whereas I can buy 10 pounds of potatoes and it only costs about 25 bucks and will feed us all. THEN add some veggies and fruits to that....hey, that sounds just like Dr. McDougalls plan....starch based with the addition of fruits and veggies.

Debbie brings up a very good point. In practicing Dr. McDougall's plan, starch centered, it is cost effective. It took me a long time to understand starch creates satiety, vegetables are a condiment. That is where food and money make the 180 degree turn.

What I feel she is upset about, and I could be wrong is she feels she and her family are religiously following Dr. McDougall's plan and others come in and promote something different. Dr. McDougall says very clearly, there is no money to be made in healing chronic illnesses with food. The physic buck stops here. The 180 degree turn is saying "No", to education that says it differently then starch being the base, and vegetables are a condiment.

Maybe Dr. McDougall should create a forum, where people can come in and promote their services openly. And the monitors can just repost their posts in the proper forum, because they consciously or subconsciously have a financial agenda.

Aloha, patty... everyone understands money, and with Dr. McDougall, he is the only doctor I have seen address it in respects to health 100%. And when not it just keeps spinning.

[Debbie]

Whereas I can buy 10 pounds of potatoes and it only costs about 25 bucks and will feed us all.

Sorry for reducing your post to this one sentence, but I can't get that price out of my mind. I've never, ever paid more than 4 bucks for a ten pound bag of potatoes. And you find them cheap at 25 bucks?

Typo on my part. I meant 10 10 pound bags. Lol