Atkins Version 2.0!

[CarrotTopsRGreen]

I think there is some misunderstanding here about the use of the words "fat" and "overweight." I don't think there is any argument, at least for most people, with the use of those terms as long as they are not personally directed to anyone who has come here looking for a solution to their weight or health problems. I think the problem comes in when someone looks at another person (that person NOT being someone who is in a public forum touting a particular way of eating, such as the aforementioned Gary Taubes et al.) and says "She has a fat butt," or "Wow, look at that fat person." I am overweight and I know it. Overweight people do not live in a vacuum; they know if they are fat (yes, I'll say it). They don't need someone else to point it out to them. They already feel the guilt and the shame without having it thrown in their faces in a deprecating way. However, if someone close to you says, "Dear, I am very concerned because I see you gaining weight. I love you and I know you are not happy being this way, and I am worried about your health," that is an entirely different matter. As someone else said, it's all in the WAY it is said and not the words that are offensive. My husband and I do talk about my weight, and he is doing his best to help me - he is supportive, takes walks with me, encourages my cooking in the McDougall way. He doesn't say, "You have a fat butt," or "Look at that underarm jiggle." That would just put me on the defensive, make me angry and probably make me doubt that he cares about me or my feelings. Hope I have stated this in a helpful way. It is terrible to see such furor in the ranks over this issue.

[VegMommy]

Sarah Hallberg, MD looks a little overweight and unfit to me.

Did I mention that this has been a communication problem for low-carb liars in the past?
Watch this Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zVxA6yipv4

This makes me very, very sad. Disregard what she has to say because she "looks a little overweight"?

"Low-carb liars"...really? Do you think she's lying? To what end? Is she getting rich from making her patients sicker?

And that video. It's just disgraceful and brings down the level of discourse. I'm actually ashamed to be associated with it (having publicly embraced the McDougall diet) in any way.

Having a hard time following this post; pushing back against Dr. McD, then underlining his refutation of the video ---?

I agree with Dr. McDougall that Dr. Hallberg is wrong in her approach. By "that video", I meant the one linked in the part of Dr. McDougall's post that I quoted. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The one called "Low Carb vs. Plant Based" is the one I object to. It lowers the plant-based argument from science to "ha ha, you're fat!" And, as one of the comments on Youtube points out, "A nice demonstration of the ad hominem fallacy. And of selection bias, since there are just as many lean proponents of the low carb approach, which for some reason you failed to mention."

[scooterpie]

I agree with Dr McD on the tried and true SCIENCE re: his diet.

A critique of another MD's body (a female he presumably doesn't know personally) is another subject entirely. I get his point assuming she eats low-carb style, but don't quite understand who he is trying to reach or who WILL be reached and then motivated to change by this particular critique. He isn't her dr and to me the critique is even worse because he's male and she's female.

It really makes me glad I've spent money on one book of his, The McDougall Plan (1983). I didn't need this website to convince me of the benefits, freedom and joy of eating a completely different diet than I was previously used to. I didn't need to spend my money on ASWs and all the rest to convince me. I don't think his singling out of another medical professional in critique of her body right off the bat would have convinced me.

Here's my own critique--he sometimes appears to be in quite a lot of pain when standing before an audience. I hope not, but the one presentation where he answered questions and then really didn't seem to have the patience anymore was telling. Maybe he just needed to go to the bathroom after all that time--who knows:-)

[NickS]

Anyone trying to understand the bizarre world of low-carb should do themselves a favor and watch the videos on http://www.plantpositive.com.

It isn't hard to see how they can end up with livelihoods depending on promoting and perpetuating the silly views therein.

[vman]

I'm sorry, but these people are pushing a diet that will have disastrous consequences for countless people. Some of these people might be your friends, parents, kids, cousins, co-workers. In fact, I'm pretty sure each of us knows someone who has or will fall prey to this nonsense. This is not some silly argument; people's lives will be shorter because of what Atkins proponents are pushing. People you and I care about will get sick earlier, and some will just up and die one day--a lot earlier than they should have. It's happened to people I knew, and we all know it's not fun. Sometimes I'm amazed the plant docs can contain their frustration and anger. We know what the effects of a diet like Atkins will be, so if the good doctor gets frustrated and stoops a little once in a while to take a shot at the way an Atkins thought leader (oxymoron?) looks like, I for one understand. Yes, there's a high road, but sometimes people need to be knocked upside the head to realize how ridiculous something is, and maybe videos like that will get people thinking about what we all take as obvious.

[healthyvegan]

A minute and 45 into the video I just wanted to scream out "NOOOOOOOO its because the insulin is being blocked by dietary fat!!!!!" I couldn't watch any more, just disgraceful.

[Spiral]

A minute and 45 into the video I just wanted to scream out "NOOOOOOOO its because the insulin is being blocked by dietary fat!!!!!" I couldn't watch any more, just disgraceful.

Yes. I knew this was going waaaaay wrong when she implied that the glycemic index of a food is identical to the insulin index of a food.

Not true. You can eat a food that will keep your glucose level stable in the short term even as your insulin level goes up.

Also, she gave away the game when she mentioned gluconeogenesis, the making of glucose by our body. This is why people on low-carb diets can see themselves with high blood sugar levels.

So frustrating that to many people Sarah Hallberg is persuasive.

[awest27]

I'm sorry, but these people are pushing a diet that will have disastrous consequences for countless people. Some of these people might be your friends, parents, kids, cousins, co-workers. In fact, I'm pretty sure each of us knows someone who has or will fall prey to this nonsense. This is not some silly argument; people's lives will be shorter because of what Atkins proponents are pushing. People you and I care about will get sick earlier, and some will just up and die one day--a lot earlier than they should have. It's happened to people I knew, and we all know it's not fun. Sometimes I'm amazed the plant docs can contain their frustration and anger. We know what the effects of a diet like Atkins will be, so if the good doctor gets frustrated and stoops a little once in a while to take a shot at the way an Atkins thought leader (oxymoron?) looks like, I for one understand. Yes, there's a high road, but sometimes people need to be knocked upside the head to realize how ridiculous something is, and maybe videos like that will get people thinking about what we all take as obvious.

Yeah, that's right. It is our friends and relatives. A relative was visiting recently. We were of course talking diet and she mentioned "high protein". She barely finished when I said "you'll get gall stones". And sure enough, she had already been through it and had the surgery. She didn't take any advice from me though because she was still eating yogurt every day and using high fat dressings on her salad.

[dteresa]

When I was fat an occasional person or two would tell me I got fat. I was really grateful to them because otherwise I never would have known. If they hadn't spoken up I never would have guessed that those size 26 dresses in my closet instead of the size twelves I wore when younger indicated that I got fat. Information is always useful.

didi

[Ern2Win]

I'm sorry, but these people are pushing a diet that will have disastrous consequences for countless people. Some of these people might be your friends, parents, kids, cousins, co-workers. In fact, I'm pretty sure each of us knows someone who has or will fall prey to this nonsense. This is not some silly argument; people's lives will be shorter because of what Atkins proponents are pushing. People you and I care about will get sick earlier, and some will just up and die one day--a lot earlier than they should have. It's happened to people I knew, and we all know it's not fun.

Amen!

About the time I went WFPB, I had a friend who found 'Wheat Belly' and bought in hook, line and sinker. He was eating 2 eggs a day. Well, less than 2 years later....major open heart surgery. Thank goodness he survived, but for how long I don't know. Hopefully, he is making some dietary changes...but have not had the opportunity to find out.

[hazelrah]

It's not like I'm walking around the supermarket pointing at people and telling them them they're overweight.

No, you save that for internet forums. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48111

from http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-per ... asics.html:

Our government places a high priority on the public being allowed to speak their mind about elected officials as well as other public figures. People in the public eye get less protection from defamatory statements and face a higher burden when attempting to win a defamation lawsuit. - See more at: http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-per ... wYU6w.dpuf

In other words, our society places a higher value on public discourse than on protecting the speech of people already in a position that provides them a more powerful megaphone. That's why you can make questionable statements about Dr. McDougall (on a public forum that he, himself, provides) without having any sense of remorse.

Mark

[Jumpstart]

When it comes to questionable statements we have to review what is said about others whether they believe in our way of eating or not. These people might be misinformed, even mislead by some of the science showing short term number results, but many are well meaning and truly believe in what they preach as much as Dr. McDougall believes in what he says.

As to Dr. Sarah Hallberg she isn't just a medical doctor, she is also a exercise physiologists and avid outdoors person who does extensive backpacking, canoe camping, lifts weights and leads outdoor weekend and extended weekend trips. I and my DH have been on a number of her weekend backpacking trips and she has been on one of my DH's trips that he leads for the Sierra Club and I can assure you she is anything but out of shape or even a bit fat.

[dteresa]

A person can be well meaning and yet still cause a lot of damage to himself and others. Although I think Jimmy Moore is actually an extremely clever salesman and pitchman, others think he is well meaning. Yet I have no doubt his followers are being harmed by following his advice. Well meaning might be a good description of someone's intentions but does not make your advice worth taking.

I do feel a bit uncomfortable at the way those fat/skinny videos, which could be instructive in a more polite way, are presented with the laughter, music and funny sounds. I just looked up, but could not find, what I believe was the original mocking video. It was from vegsource.com and the comment made from vegsource was that turnabout was fair play. Apparently there was a very similar video made by someone with the same music and sound effects which I believe I may have actually seen a long while ago, mocking the low fat high carb way of eating. Maybe I am remembering incorrectly but I think the present series came about because they were mimicking those low carb offerings.

Or the original video to which vegsource was referring may have been a video by Jimmy Moore complete with music and cheers showing in video his weight loss.

Only vegsource can come to the rescue here. I believe the original comparison videos are from them.

didi