Under what conditions would you eat animal products?

[SoyLatte]

Grocery store samples...don't judge....
(ducks under desk....)

[arugula]

My father was a teenager during the Nazi occupation of Greece. The Nazis cut off the food supply. An estimated 800,000 Greeks starved to death. My father escaped to the mountains and survived.

But before that, he said that all the pets in Athens "disappeared" and all the people got really skinny except for the collaborators, who were obvious because they weren't skeletal.

I can't say never. I might say if I were near death, and there were no other opportunities for calories, maybe I would have an egg or something.

But I doubt this will ever be a concern.

Our greatest food problem right now is easy access to too many calories of the wrong kind. If there were no available food calories starting tomorrow, most people would be in no danger of death for a very long time.

I, only the other hand, would probably die quickly. My BMI is 18.5 or so.

[f1jim]

Thank goodness this is just a hypothetical question. When really the most pertinent question is "under what conditions would I actually follow this program to the letter." We have near zero conditions in which avoiding meat is impossible. It's a personal choice we all get to make at every meal. Some choose to eat animals, other do not. Still others are ok with only consuming a small amount of animals. They are all choices we get to make.
I can't envision a situation where I would willingly choose to consume animals but thank goodness the world is made up of more than just Jim Browns. I'd love to see more people push away from the animal products, though. We would all be in a much better place.
f1jim

[Katydid]

I remember watching an episode of "Naked and Afraid" where the male in the couple was a vegan. He basically laid around in the shade and would occasionally go lop off some local cactus and eat the flesh. Then he'd go lay down again. Drove his female partner nuts. She ended up tapping out. He got up at the end of 21 days and walked out to his pick-up sight thinner, but none the worse for 21 days without "animal protein"

http://www.channelguidemagblog.com/inde ... pisode-10/

Kate

[Gail]

I couldn't eat dead animal parts any more than eat dead human parts.

In the movie 'Alive' , based on a true story, a plane crashes in the mountains. The remaining survivors eventually realise no rescue is coming. They need sustenance to go find help, the only thing available is ...

'The Road' ,is a post-apocalyptic movie. A father and son survive and struggle to find food. Some other nasty people, wanting a food supply, take an old house with guns and keep prisoners in the basement.


-------------------------------------

My father-in-law also ran from Russians and Germans occupying his family farm in Lithuania.

He survived on spring onions, until he was picked up by Germans and put in a prison camp.

He later fled to Australia as a refugee. They always had grew a flourishing subsistence garden, and he preserved his own pickled cucumbers with dill.

Peace, Gail

[Dougalling]

When I started WFPB, I thought I'd have one bison burger in the summer. Four months into WFPB I knew I would never eat meat again. EVER! Meat production is too detrimental to the environment. Meat production is cruel. All animals have become like pets. They have personality.

[nicoles]

If my life continues more or less as it is, that is, non-disaster or apocalyptic conditions, then I won't eat animals or their products knowingly ever again. In a true, long-term disaster, post-apocalypse situation, I would do what I could to survive. I'd still avoid animal products, since I have an autoimmune disease, but I know my survival instinct is strong and I'd guess it is slightly amoral, too.

[f1jim]

It's perfectly normal to follow our survival instincts. One does whatever is necessary to stay alive.
We certainly don't fault an animal for killing a human if it's survival is at stake and the reverse situation shouldn't pose us any ethical questions either. A human or an animal will chew off it's foot if it means it's survival.
No ethical problems there.
f1jim

[baardmk]

I generally disapprove of how everyone speaks of ethics when they really mean morals or simply good or bad. Ethics is moral philosophy or theory of right/wrong. But of course I'm in a small minority and trying to fight some common language usage.

...
No ethical problems there.

We should be wary of acquitting actions motivated by survival or perceived necessity. Ethics is not a mere tool for finding convenient/good choices. Even if actions were natural or necessary for survival it wouldn't make those actions right. There may be a lot of ethical problems all over. Some of those may be championed by very small minorities, but the power of majority don't diminish those potential ethical problems!

I've enjoyed this thread. Many good comments to agree with. I don't see myself eating any animal products.

[Lucrezia]

I would only eat animal foods if my health was at risk without them.
That's what happened to me. I got malnourished from being a low fat vegan and developed some health problems. Before that my health was perfect - I was vegetarian for 18 years but I was eating some eggs occassionally..but mostly living off fruits and veg. It worked great. After going vegan, cutting out fats and eggs made me sick it seemed. I got too ill to continue on the vegan path so I began to eat fish for a year. I got better. But now... one year later.. I can't stand animal foods anymore...and am again vegan. I do not want to make the same mistakes again because if I do and I get sick again - I will probably start eating fish again. My reason for wanting to be vegan is ethical. I hope there is a way of being perfectly healthy as a vegan. Ps. I have never had junk food. No American standard diets or similar. I'm European and I guess our food cuture is pretty far from the American food culture. My diet has been similar to what is advocated by Dr McDougall but with the addition of olive oil and eggs and fish. When I was vegan I mostly ate oatmeal and fruits. That didn't do it for me. I'm not sure how to make it work this time. I'm eating starches and green peas every day though. And I may add more tofu and miso.

[dailycarbs]

Lucrezia,
You don't need eggs, fish and oil. It sounds like your diet lacks starch calories and maybe some more veggies/greens. But first, make sure you eat lots more whole starches. Forget the tofu and miso except as condiments. You'd benefit from looking through the information here on this site.

[colonyofcells]

The majority of humans can probably thrive on a vegan diet with vitamin b12 supplements and epa/dha supplements altho I am not omniscient so there could be exceptions. Many vegan diets that avoid starches fail bec. of too few calories which is why the starch solution works for most people. Some people like the greenland people and inuit probably have adaptations to a high animal diet and or high fat diet altho my guess is most of these people can probably also survive on a starch based vegan diet like most humans. A pritikin diet with maybe monthly seafood can also be healthy for some people like the grandma of Dr Michael Greger. Some ethical vegans find it acceptable to eat some shellfish like clams maybe once a month. Some tofu and miso is allowed in the mcdougall diet. Can also try some cooked mushrooms every day. I also would like to believe that I am an ethical person altho unfortunately, I have to eat other life forms like plants and mushrooms to survive. Mushrooms are actually more related to animals than to plants.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 143924.htm
Today, I am eating canned pumpkin and green peas. I also ate some nuts and seeds like flax seeds and chia seeds. Today, I am drinking lots of various kinds of tea. I also plan to microwave some frozen vegetables later.

[openmind]

I allow a tiny % of my calories (0-5%) for animal products for convenience and a change of pace. I never buy or bring it into the house. I may have a piece of cake or a pastry (dairy) when socializing at a gathering. On rare occasions I may have some seafood because I live in a coastal area where local fishermen and restaurants dominate and it feels like the thing to do when I'm out with friends. Sometimes I'll get a veggie dish that has oil if it's really appealing otherwise. The Korean stone garden comes to mind. I never eat meat, chicken, or pork.

It's the best I can do and still feel as though I can socialize with people in this envirionment without making them feel weird or making a federal case out of the food. I've been doing this for 5 years and have no fear of slipping or falling off the wagon as I'm no longer addicted to sad food and whenever I do break from the diet, I'm eager for my big salad, starches, and fruit the next day. And to be honest, I like the once in a while change of pace (mostly to get out of the kitchen and not to have to always bring my own food everywhere). We all do the best we can.

I am exactly where you are daily carbs. I estimate I get less than 1% of my calories from dairy/eggs combined. I don't sweat that less than 1%. Next week I am going on a cruise and I have made a decision to be 'just vegetarian', because trying to go 100% oil free vegan was too much of a problem. If I pushed harder I could probably get the wait staff on the cruise line to finally get it after handsomely bribing them and the chef staff, but I don't think it's worth the effort because I am 100% confident I will be 100% back on plan the day I get back from the cruise.

[ETeSelle]

Surprisingly, it is easy to stay on plan on most cruise lines. I went on a Holland America cruise to Alaska w/ my mom a few years ago, and I had oatmeal and fruit for breakfast, sushi (3-4 different veggie rolls every day!), salad, and fruit for lunch most days, and generally whatever the vegan option was for dinner, with some tweaks. I only ate in the main dining room for dinner. There WAS oil in a few of those items, but I substituted where possible. Basically, if I looked at the special vegan menu the day before and told them what I wanted and with what tweaks or subs, they made it happen. The crew on cruise ships are ABSURDLY (almost to the point of embarrassment on my part!) solicitous, and if you want it, they will get it for you.

[dteresa]

I will always associate eating Easter ham with my MI, right or wrong. So I plan to eat ham again. If I ever end up unable to care for myself and it is necessary to put me into a nursing home, I plan to ask my daughters to buy me two of the biggest, fattiest, saltiest hams they can find and I will eat to my heart's content. With a sign pinned to me that says do not resuscitate.

We are a religious family and my daughters say I can't do that because it would be suicide but I say, it isn't suicide, it's dinner. Everyone including my daughters eat such meals so if I am committing suicide so do they make the attempt every time they sit down to dinner. What a way to go. I am planning the side dishes. And New York cheesecake for dessert.

didi