Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

[dailycarbs]

I'm of the opinion that it's perverse to glamorize (or even normalize) this body image.

Plus-Sized Model Challenges Beauty Standards By Starring In Her First Modelling Agency Shoot
http://www.boredpanda.com/plus-sized-su ... ng-agency/

I wonder if she'll see 50 and what illnesses will befall her if she's lucky enough to survive that long. Ok, if you now want to call me a fat shamer, tell me to mind my own business, etc, let me have it. I'm ready for the onslaught.

[f1jim]

Most of the people that find their way to these forums either have battled weight issues or are currently battling weight issues. Why this is going to always be a volatile topic is for two reasons.

1. Many people that have found an answer to being overweight are actively trying to offer advice to those still struggling.
2. Many fighting their weight issues for any length of time develop a thin skin about the issue and have a hair trigger about the issue.

I don't believe those trying to help are intentionally or even unintentionally "fat shaming" anyone in that process. It would be odd since it's always those that have been through this issue that are accused of the process. I do believe that being "formerly" overweight can make one like a "former" smoker and be insistent about following a certain course of action. Some people respond to active encouragement to make changes. Some recoil in fear.
Sometimes we have the worst of the two situations. People needing help with their weight and no one wanting to stick their neck out to help. I hope those moments are few and far between. One of the websites missions is to help people find their way out of this situation and people that have weight issues in large numbers come here looking for help. But juggling that help with sensitive nerves means extra work on our part. We have to be sensitive to feelings yet get out the important messages that can help. Sometimes it isn't going to happen. Just as with heart disease, there can be so much emotional damage that an open forum like this isn't going to be the right solution. Other issues must be addressed first. But, as anyone hanging around for years has discovered, it can be amazing to see people overcome this issue.

I personally have found our members to be loving, caring, beautiful people that only want the best for themselves and for others. Those that don't fit that description are usually weeded out fast.
Again, before you offer advice take a deep breath and go over your words again before posting. Make sure the words can't be misconstrued. If you are receiving advice take a minute before judging if a post is really an attack on your feelings.
Of all people, I know how quickly the urge to react to a post can come. I hope 8 years is teaching me more patience. It's also teaching me to more quicky weed out the unhelpful people.
I'm 60lbs less than I was before starting this way of eating. Dr. McDougall used to be overweight as a young man. He has been labelled a fat shamer several times. It comes with the territory. I don't think he takes it personal anymore. He knows there is an important message to get out and that's his focus. If it's the wrong time to hear that message that's ok to. There are always people that will listen and be helped. Same with helping people on these forums.
f1jim

[katgirl55]

I think you know the answer to your own question.

[hazelrah]

I'm of the opinion that it's perverse to glamorize (or even normalize) this body image.

Plus-Sized Model Challenges Beauty Standards By Starring In Her First Modelling Agency Shoot
http://www.boredpanda.com/plus-sized-su ... ng-agency/

I wonder if she'll see 50 and what illnesses will befall her if she's lucky enough to survive that long. Ok, if you now want to call me a fat shamer, tell me to mind my own business, etc, let me have it. I'm ready for the onslaught.

I try to keep an open mind, but the tattoos and the nose ring kind of scare me.

Mark

[dailycarbs]

I think you know the answer to your own question.

I'm not exactly sure what you're implying but since each answer is a reflection of the opinion of the poster, "the answer" would vary from case to case. Thus the poll. I think it's important to reiterate that I'm not making any judgments about the model. What I'm asking is, "is it reasonable to object to the glamorization of this body image as healthy or normal?" Or is it off limits and must we all shout, "hip hip hooray! Obese is the new healthy and normal."

Let me ask it another way: I wonder, those of you with daughters, would you be ok with your daughter idealizing this "plus size" and striving to attain it? Or being proud to be this large with no thought of changing? I think these are reasosonable questions to ask.

[sharonbikes]

I have been doing some reading up on this to better understand the perspective of a friend of mine. This woman and her followers are part of a group of folks who assert that one's weight is genetically programmed and that you should eat "intuitively" and your body will be the size it is destined to be and you can't change that in any healthy way. They also assert that ones health has no relationship to your weight and to say otherwise is wrong and "shaming."

I believe everyone should be happy in their own skin and live their life to the fullest. I also believe that while some things are not in our control, many things are the result of our own choices and behaviors.

Sharon

[hazelrah]

I think you know the answer to your own question.

I'm not exactly sure what you're implying but since each answer is a reflection of the opinion of the poster, "the answer" would vary from case to case. Thus the poll. I think it's important to reiterate that I'm not making any judgments about the model. What I'm asking is, "is it reasonable to object to the glamorization of this body image as healthy or normal?" Or is it off limits and must we all shout, "hip hip hooray! Obese is the new healthy and normal."

Let me ask it another way: I wonder, those of you with daughters, would you be ok with your daughter idealizing this "plus size" and striving to attain it? Or being proud to be this large with no thought of changing? I think these are reasosonable questions to ask.

I'll comment in the way that I have come to think about it, and, as usual, it has to do with politics ( which I guess is OK given the topic).

I think we have become so taken with the notion that all that matters is public opinion and celebrity that we believe we no longer have to observe the laws of physics. It's like when Abbie Hoffman talked about defying the law of gravity, except now, instead of him being the nut, it's the entire society that is saying that all that matters is political will, and the people who are making sense are fools. But, no matter how many laws you pass to try to make people believe global warming is fiction, or how many ads you run to make people believe obesity is not unhealthy, there will be a day of reckoning, just as if Abbie Hoffman had taken the response of so many of his conservative critics, and tested out his claims by jumping off a tall building, I'm pretty sure what the outcome would be. We can keep working towards a more diverse and inclusive society, but before drawing a line in the sand as to what we will tolerate, I think we should check to make sure the oasis is on the same side of the line we are on. With things the way they are, it's hard to imagine promoting obesity getting us anywhere we want to go.

Mark

[sharonbikes]

Yep. Those pesky laws of physics. If you read more about this group of folks, they insist the laws of physics are also "shaming". There is so much bad science out there these days being marketed as good science, there is no way for the average person to know what is marketing and entertainment and what is real as most of it is marketing. Sigh.

[roundcoconut]

I find it so utterly strange that people here on these boards sometimes, literally, point out fat people and then share their negative judgments and opinions of them. Threads like, "I went to lunch with my fat co-worker; she ate french fries" or "My friend feeds her children twizzlers; the 8-year-old already has a little pot belly."

It is so wildly clear to me that -- whether or not something is a desirable quality or not -- that when we adopt attitudes that make us more judgmental, contemptful, and resentful towards others, we are not shifting toward being better people.

I wonder if we were to sit around and point out people with dyslexia, autism and learning disabilities -- how would that look? "I went to lunch with my co-worker; she mispronounced the word linguine" or "My friend's daughter is autistic; the 8-year-old still doesn't know the alphabet" I mean, for sure, learning disabilities are a product of things that have gone wrong with our health as a culture, due to how we live, what's in our food supply, etc. Dyslexia, autism and learning disabilities are not to be glorified or held as the new standard. But to point others out for ridicule? That is my *definition* of being a low-class person.

I think it is 100% possible to be a person who eats a plant-based diet, who uses their way of eating to see others through kind eyes. I mean, did anyone *choose* to get born into a toxic food environment? Did anyone *choose* to be highly susceptible to food addictions? Does anyone *choose* to be on the receiving end of nutrition myths and misinformation?

But it is 100% clear to me that if you wish to help correct any of the above problems, then you have to come at this from a point of realizing that society has a huge role in not only people's health situation, but their weight situation. And if you wish to help others, then pointing out fat people and bagging on them isn't really very constructive. It just doesn't help. Maybe people enjoy the status and privilege of being a thin person, and get some perverse pleasure out of feeling superior. I just think there are better options here.

Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm just curious, does anyone else here ever feel that the weight hate is a bit much? I honestly am coming to dislike this part of the plant-based community. That's not who I am as a person. Those are not values I can stand by.

EDITED TO ADD: Take the term "weight hate" with a grain of salt. It rhymes. It is not meant to be particularly inflammatory.

[f1jim]

Hate is a strong way of analyzing someones posting of an experience. Is it really hateful to post about an overweight co-worker eating poorly? Posting about it does little more than let someone vent frustrations but I'm not sure that is really hateful. Part of coming here is the ability to see what is going on in the world around us and being able to share that experience with like minded people.
Now if one were to openly comment to someone that they were fat and they should eat something more appropriate one could make the argument that this is an inappropriate way to behave toward others. Even then, would it be hate behaviour?

We all have incidents with our familys, friends, co-workers that make us shake our heads in dismay. Is having those feelings hateful? Are having those feelings fat shaming?
I'm not sure that the impoetus for posts involving our daily lives comes from a place of feeling smug about ourselves. Nor does it come from a desire to shame anyone. I think it's the natural inclination to feel frustrated and hopeless as the world seems to be preoccupied with destroying itself. Could that be? Might people here actually be real, caring, feeling people not bent on hurting anyone?
f1jim

[roundcoconut]

What I'm asking is, "is it reasonable to object to the glamorization of this body image as healthy or normal?" Or is it off limits and must we all shout, "hip hip hooray! Obese is the new healthy and normal."

Let me ask it another way: I wonder, those of you with daughters, would you be ok with your daughter ... being proud to be this large with no thought of changing? I think these are reasosonable questions to ask.

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying here.

The thing is, I think that when people are constantly getting the message, "Your body is wrong. Your fat body is disgusting. You are less than everyone because of your body size", then people (because they are humans, and really do have every right to be here) need to get some ground under their feet. You really can't live your life in shame and self-loathing, and that's not something I'd ever wish on a person.

So, people try to focus on dressing the body they have and feeling good about themselves (what they are good at, what they do well as a person, their values and strengths) without letting their body weight or size dominate the tenor of their life. I would do *exactly* this if I were in those shoes.

I think that at some point, if a person has already spent a few decades dominated by feelings of body shame and being at war with their appetite, it is reasonable to call of the war and start undoing the emotional damage. I think this is really, really smart.

It is just kinda this reality -- we live in a culture that is somewhat "obesogenic" if you will. Toxic food environment, addicting kids early to sugar, fats, flours, junk foods, sedentary schools and jobs, driving everywhere instead of walking. So, to have a double standard about this is kinda weird: if the above factors have helped make you fat, then you should be ashamed; if the above factors have not had the same effect, then you are just fine.

I think that not dealing with the realities of our health problems (and larger weight) as a society is a little like refusing to deal with the realities of the dyslexia, autism and learning disabilities that we also now have as a society. We don't want these things to exist, but enforcing a culture of shame is really weird. The reality is, there are humans who now have certain conditions and we just have to expand our scope of humanity. Yeah, including letting people feel good about themselves even if their health has been affected, or their weight has been affected or their cognitive abilities have been affected.

Does that make any sense, where I'm coming from? I see what other people are saying, but think it's a valid analogy that we have to *deal*, and still treat people well, including their right to live a life that does not revolve around correcting or hiding their "defects".

[dailycarbs]

roundcoconut, good points and thanks for contributing. I wonder if you feel that I crossed that line? Be honest. I can take it.

To reiterate yet again, my point is, if modeling agencies, blogs and general media promote a body image like the one linked as positive and healthy, must we accept that without criticism? After all, it's quite a bit different to say "my friend has a weight problem and he should lose weight." It's quite another to plaster the Internet with "plus sized" people, claim that's it's healthy and normal thing, and make it politically incorrect for anyone to contradict it. I mean, that's what Jimmy Moore is doing. So we need to stop criticizing him as well. Because by this standard, his 95% fat diet, bulletproof coffee, books, blog posts, and podcasts are hands off! He says that he's never been healthier or happier. Case closed.

And I wonder, does the same standard apply to "minus sized" people. Let's recall the recent HH thread. How many here felt perfectly comfortable saying she was anorexic? Lindsay is a public figure (just like this model) so if "fat shaming" is off limits in this case, what about "skinny shamimg?" If one is and the other isn't, why the double standard? I'm looking for an answer and to stimulate reasonable discussion, not a fight.

For me, it simple, individual person, none of my business. Public figure, fair game either way. For the record, I though that Lindsay looked fine either way—2 different points on a healthy spectrum. But I was definitely in the minority.

Edit: related thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48117

The danger of not being able to publicly challenge this new normal is that it will lead to more of the same (see above).

[f1jim]

"The thing is, I think that when people are constantly getting the message, "Your body is wrong. Your fat body is disgusting. You are less than everyone because of your body size", then people (because they are humans, and really do have every right to be here) need to get some ground under their feet. You really can't live your life in shame and self-loathing, and that's not something I'd ever wish on a person."

Is that message being conveyed to them by someone here posting an experience they had at work? Are they getting that message from the people here on the forum that they are disgusting? That they have no worth? Am I missing a post or two?
Or are YOU getting that message from someone posting their daily experience? Because that person they saw at work certainly isn't getting that message. That only leaves the people visiting the forums. I certainly am not getting that message. Perhaps I am naive but where is anyone here telling anyone they are disgusting or shameful? All I see is the occasional post were someone is venting about seeing someone in the process of destroying themselves and recognizing a process they perhaps were doing in the past. That is certainly the attitude I take when I am at the grocery store looking at other shopping baskets while in line. I see the old Jim Brown in action all around me and it's a scary picture. In some ways it's like viewing a destructive process you feel hopeless about stopping. Makes you want to vent to someone that can understand. That's a big part of why we are hear. There are very few other people that will understand that feeling. I really don't see any malice or shaming in that. Perhaps only pity.
f1jim

[dteresa]

I know nothing about a man's body image or what he might deem acceptable but I do know that women like to look nice and have pretty clothes whether they are fat or thin. Manufacturers and designers are not social workers and if there were no money in designing and advertising plus size clothes they would not do it. And if plus size models and department store mannequins will help sell a product for which there is a market then it is not a political statement but clever advertising.

I remember more than fifty years ago a very small woman would have to buy clothes that were designed for children and in which she did not look very stylish. A very small friend of mine had to travel a distance to a special store in the city to buy clothes appropriate for a grown woman. Then manufacturers got smart and thus the petite section of the dress shop.

And years ago if you were a plus size the only styles you could find were suitable for old ladies but not young women. There is no reason not to look as nice as you can whether struggling to lose weight or being content with your larger size. I guess if you don't think a fat woman has a right to buy pretty clothes and look as nice as she can so she feels good about herself then you are a fat shamer. Or if you think people who others think are unattractive have no right to be happy with themselves.

This says nothing about the health consequences of carrying too much weight. Which is another subject.

didi

[nayasmom]

I wonder why no one ever posts on this forum about the advertisements that celebrate anorexic looking models. Photoshopping and other editing tricks aside, why do we as a society celebrate starvation while ridiculing obesity? To me, this is nothing more than hypocrisy. it's not fat-shaming, it's the need to enforce conformity so that one's view remains unsullied by extremes in imperfection.
It's the mistaken idea (even here among the enlightened) that thin = healthy and fat = unhealthy. Underweight people have the same risks of heart disease as the obese, yet we never discuss that whether in the guise of concern or just outright contempt. Even those of normal body habitus are excused their crappy diets because they are of an ideal weight and size. Why don't we despair over those ads depicting deliriously happy slim people stuffing their faces with burgers and shakes? Why do we excuse those models? Do we equate normal body size automatically with health? Should we do so? Shades of Jim Fixx.
It's the mistaken idea that famous fat people are celebrating their fatness, or trying to get the rest of humanity on board with becoming fat, or even using their size as some kind of activism platform. Fat people are simply fat people. Get over it. Stop judging them. Mind your own business. Be concerned about their health, sure, or be sad because you can predict their future based on their size, but for pete's sake stop the negativity. It does no one one iota of good, and is wasted energy.

In one sentence: It isn't about size, it's about the food. With a nod to the good Doctor. Stop focusing on what size a person is and focus on what that person is eating.

Robyn