Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

You, sir, are a…

Fat shamer
6
21%
Sexist pig
3
10%
Busybody. Mind your own business!
4
14%
Ok in my book
11
38%
Meh, I don't care one way or the other.
5
17%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

Postby roundcoconut » Fri May 22, 2015 7:34 pm

f1jim wrote:I ask that any message that exhibits behavior you find offensive be reported. If you do not report it you cannot complain about it.


Thanks for always being available for moderating away the extreme posts, but I'm not sure that it is a matter of having good board moderators. You can edit or fix people's posts, but would that really change any underlying attitudes?

And, it's not as though the underlying attitudes are too much harsher than those harbored by average people in middle America -- just that they seem to be so much more on display because (necessarily) we talk so much about eating habits, health, bodies and weight.

The attitudes about weight in middle America seem pretty prejudicial and extreme to me -- where one quality, viewed as negative, is seen to (practically) contaminate the whole person. I do know people in middle America who feel that their other accomplishments are all overshadowed by -- or negated by -- one particular trait. For women, appearance (sometimes including size, shape, weight) seems to often be the make-or-break trait in the eyes of others, where unless you have a pleasing size, shape or weight, some will see you as a lesser daughter, a lesser date, a less accomplished person, a less valuable opinion.

So -- it's tricky. I'm sure you could find a much more empathetic crowd (toward people with higher BMIs) on the PostPunkKitchen boards, but then you'd be around people who care less about health and maybe lean more toward fattier vegan substitutes. They seem like nice people, but i think the plant-based crowd has the angle I care more about -- eating for long-term pleasure and for long-term health. Oh well -- OK to have a wide variety of opinions on these boards -- there seems to be room for varying degrees of body acceptance, even when we all agree on the same basic health and nutritional principles.
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Re: Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

Postby f1jim » Sat May 23, 2015 9:34 am

" there seems to be room for varying degrees of body acceptance, even when we all agree on the same basic health and nutritional principles."

That's a tricky one. The whole concept of "body acceptance" is such a loaded concept. We all want to be accepted as human beings with self worth and our abilities to contribute to the greater culture. I bet no one on these pages disagrees with that. No one here is going to argue that someone with excessive weight somehow loses their worth. Especially since the majortiy of our membership either has excessive weight or did so in the past. This is not a group of insensitive people, despite the subtle message I am hearing.
What you will find here is a focus and attitude toward that excess weight as a health risk and a natural human negative response to it. Calling that fat shaming is improper. Calling that intolerant is uncalled for. We are probably going to disagree because we ascribe that attitude to different motives. I see the motives as positive and welcome, especially given the climate of increasing girth in our population. The moment you see this increasing girth as a negative some will be offended. That's just over sensitivity to a healthy response to a serious health crises. We can put our heads in the sand and not speak about the matter and hope it goes away or we can share experiences and histories in order to illuminate what many would have stay in the dark. Understandable but not productive. The world, as all of us in it needs to have the light shed on this issue. For decades I didn't see it as an issue for myself despite my own weight. I also tended to be sensitive around the issue of weight and would downplay the issue at every turn. I think that was recoiling from something I didn't really want to address head on.
My own personal health issues drove me to a way of eating that addressed my immediate cardiac issues AND the weight while giving me better perspective on how weight and health were so intertwined.
I am not naive, I am not without basic human emotions. I am able to assess whether a post is in poor taste of offensive within the context of the subject of nutrition and health. The other three moderators bring the same enlightenment. Some with far more experience and skill in these matters than I possess. We all have a perspective on evaluating posts that come from a nutritional and dietary perspective, yet we are not without feeling.
We are also fortunate to have some history with peoples reactions and posting styles on these pages. We know when a post is as tough as a two by four with tough love and dripping with empathy. We know when a post is hurtful when we read it. None of the moderators has lost the ability to understand the dynamics of human interaction. They are sometimes fraught with misunderstanding as emotions collide with words.
Here we assume peoples posts are coming from a good place. From a positive and helpful perspective. It is always possible a post may express things in a regrettable way. These are fixable issues. They are not fixable if one doesn't make us aware of them. One of the reasons I think people keep coming back to the forums is this sense of purpose and responsibility that permeates the pages. An individual post might upset you but the overall tone and desire of the group is so positive.
We are not going to make everyone happy about every post. The best we can do is make this a comfortable place for the vast majority of people that wish to address and discuss these issues openly. AND to be gently reminded that people feelings are at stake.
Let's paint an accurate picture of those participating as well as the issues we are all concerned about. I want that picture to be accurate. Sometimes the picture painted isn't accurate. When it's not I'm going to intervene.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

Postby viv » Sat May 23, 2015 3:38 pm

f1jim wrote:This is not a group of insensitive people, despite the subtle message I am hearing.
What you will find here is a focus and attitude toward that excess weight as a health risk and a natural human negative response to it. Calling that fat shaming is improper. Calling that intolerant is uncalled for.


I agree. It is this very focus and attitude toward excess weight as a health risk that has enabled me to stay committed to the Starch Solution, lose 50 lbs and regain my health. Nothing, and I repeat NOTHING else has worked. I visit the discussion board frequently to stay focussed on the message and to be inspired by the many wonderful posters who are also committed to Dr. McDougall's teachings and this woe.

Viv
5'8", Started March 2013
Starting weight: 217
Current weight: 157
60lbs gone--for good!
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Re: Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

Postby stilllurking » Sat May 23, 2015 6:04 pm

f1jim wrote:Again, I ask that any message that exhibits behavior you find offensive be reported. If you do not report it you cannot complain about it. Let's see the examples of offensive messages we are "hypothetically" discussing. If a message is truly offensive you do everyone harm by not reporting it.
We have two male moderators and two female moderators.
f1jim


First of all, there are two male moderators who frequently post (Jim/Jeff), one male moderator who occasionally posts (Dr M), and two female moderators (Heather McD who is new I think and Carole) who never post.

The moderator who seems to do most of the moderating, is you.

I personally think there should be room for disagreements and discussion. I have no problem with the idea of some people saying "Well, I don't think it's sexist to say x," and others to say, "well, I do think it's sexist." And everyone can give their points of view based on their opinions and life experiences. Also, someone can say "I find that line of reasonable objectionable," or "offensive," without actually finding the post objectionable or offensive. And I'm only going to report a post that is objectionable (though I probably won't do that either: see below). I'm fine with people taking part or all of my post and explaining how they disagree. What I'm not fine with is the idea that I am not entitled to that viewpoint, or that the fact that I have a particular viewpoint is evidence of some flaw or defect in my personality. Straw man arguments while not objectionable, certainly aren't helpful (for example, I never said anything implying that men and women aren't attracted to certain types -- I only talked about "dismemberment" being a classic example of objectification -- so posts about double wide trailers etc. are unrelated to my post).

I think that if there's some sort of fear of disagreement, then this becomes closer to a religious site than a site about a WOE. And this means actually "listening" to what people have to say. As far as I remember not one person here objected to the use of the word "fat" in general, yet there were all sorts of comments that we shouldn't be scared of the "f" word, "why do we avoid the f word,"etc.

If someone says, "all the people in the grocery store are fat, OMG, what pigs they are," and I say "I find that an offensive idea, because of ABC," then in my opinion I am certainly not attacking the poster personally, but I also want to highlight their post because I want to have a discussion about it. I am objecting to the post, not the postER. I have seen more than one instance here where the person saying, "I find that an offensive idea, because of ABC," is actually the one who is reprimanded by Jim and the thread is deleted.

There are numerous other times where a person is offended -- again, by an idea, or a way of thinking/talking, and the regulars AND moderator say basically that the objection is just a sign of how screwed up SAD eating makes us all. Or in some other way they make a personal attack on the offendee.

Dailycarbs started this thread saying:
Ok, if you now want to call me a fat shamer, tell me to mind my own business, etc, let me have it. I'm ready for the onslaught.


It sounded like he was looking for dialogue, including -- gasp -- disagreement.

Then the very first reply was from you, Jim, the moderator, saying:

Many fighting their weight issues for any length of time develop a thin skin about the issue and have a hair trigger about the issue.


In other words, if we have an objection, even within the parameters of dailycarbs' opening, then that is evidence of being thin skinned and having a hair trigger. So you, as moderator, are setting the tone. 1 -- you're telling us indirectly what you think, 2 -- you're saying that no one can legitimately disagree: those of us who might be offended are only offended because we are thin skinned.

(oh, and in case your own opinion wasn't clear you went on to say
I don't believe those trying to help are intentionally or even unintentionally "fat shaming" anyone in that process.


So, frankly, with all due respect, you can't seriously expect people to come to you with their concerns, if you've already said, before we get a chance to reply, that if we object, it's only because we have hair triggers. Perhaps for controversial topics you should remind us of the ground rules, and stay out of the discussion? (and not start a separate thread of everyone's great to make up for your silence).

And, what are those ground rules? Are we not allowed to say we are offended by something someone says? Again, that is different from saying "Dailycarbs, you're this and that," it's just saying that this type of language and viewpoint is offensive. That doesn't sound like a deletable offense, but it has been on some occasions. I thought it was the usual -- no personal attacks, swearing, etc. And also that this is a place for support following this WOE so not a place for people to argue Atkins was God or something.
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Re: Am I fat phobic or a body shaming sexist pig?

Postby f1jim » Sat May 23, 2015 10:20 pm

I'll try to summarize my position. Disagreements are going to happen and are expected in an open forum regarding diet and lifestyle. Where I get my feathers ruffled is when the message is sent that there is a fat shaming or insensitivity to peoples weight issues. I think that is not only incorrect but rather demeaning to the members here. We take great pride in making everyone feel welcome and that their experiences are welcome here. But that line is crossed when someone says or implies that there is a fat shaming presence here on the boards. We work hard to make this a comfortable place for those with EVERY health issue. Heart disease, diabetes, auto-immune conditions, excess weight. These conditions are everything this website seeks to address. The comments can be direct or subtle, as is the makeup of the membership. It is not fat phobic, fat shaming, or demeaning to anyone with any of those conditions.
We work very hard to insure the forums are a comfortable place for everyone to participate and share. It may seem unfair but I won't have that yoke around the neck of the forums. If a message is offensive or upsetting, report it. I don't claim to be objective about this subject. Fat shaming isn't tolerated, it is removed if it appears ans we go on discussing diet and lifestyle. We don't tolerate smearing these forums with behaviours that are not tolerated. There are those that are extremely sensitive to any discussions around weight but we make sure offensive talk is not present. We might disagree with what is offensive but that's our job. Feel free to report posts to ANY of the moderator, anytime.
We use Dr. McDougalls word usage and example as our guide to discussing any condition.
Let's move on.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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