Brilliant view on food addiction

[wellnesscoach]

Susan Peirce Thompson, smart cookie (who doesn't eat cookies), whole food, plant based herself. Really good interview with Howard Jacobson, co-writer, "Whole" with Dr. Campbell. Worth a listen!

http://plantyourself.com/pyp-097-susan- ... addiction/

[dailycarbs]

I listened to it. It was interesting. Not sure how much of this I buy. It should be noted that her approach is not in line with the McDougall philosophy (I think) because it goes so far as to promote avoidance of starches (including whole wheat products) and even promote protein (for satiety). The saving grace, if there is any, is that this is prescribed only for people "high on the food addicted susceptibility" scale. As far as I can tell, the scale is a metric we have to take the author's word for because it's defined by vague and subjective terms. I guess everyone can listen and make up their own minds about it.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this contradicts some of Doug Lisle's theories in that she says addiction comes from sugar and wheat (including whole wheat products)—not from salt or fat.

[colonyofcells]

It is better to be consistent in banning all refined foods including oil. I agree with shifting the addiction to the addiction of unrefined foods like unrefined starches. I don't agree with the removal of whole grain flours. If people are unable to lose weight on whole grain flours, this probably means people are not exercising enough. Longevity is probably more likely on both unrefined starches and lots of exercise. Longevity is the goal and not just weight loss via avoidance of whole grain flours. I know peasants who exercise a lot survived on whole grain flours for thousands of years. If nuts and fruits are causing addictions, maybe these can be eliminated. Classifying people as addicts on a scale from 1 to 10 is probably useless and it is ok to be addicted to unrefined starches like whole grain flours. Life is also an addiction but I don't classify people from 1 to 10 on how addicted to life they are. There are vegan athletes who thrive just fine on fruits altho I am not sure if such a diet leads to longevity. Today, I bought Trader Joe's pain pauline bread (seems high in salt) and I heard it is a type of sourdough bread. I will probably eat 7 servings of bread with boiled pinto beans tomorrow.
http://www.fornobravo.com/blog/wp-conte ... o-copy.jpg
I have several large bags of dry beans (pinto, mayocoba, black, red, garbanzo and lentil) from costco at home so maybe I am also a 10 as a bean addict. I got the additional types of beans from the costco business center (hathaway av, hayward ca) :
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/costco-h ... nn13mJnlOw

[wellnesscoach]

She is a tenured PhD, graduated top of her class in university. She's not making stuff up from nowhere, she is quoting lots of research, much with rodent lab studies and others about how the brain works.

If you really listen, you will hear that the research shows that fat and salt don't SEEM to have the same drug/addictive effect on dopamine receptors in the brain that sugar and flour do, and there are scientific reasons for that. But you have to actually listen and really pay attention to the scientific discussion.

Also in the blue zones interview with Dan Buettner, that was just sent out in the Mcdougall newsletter, he pointed out that the longest lived cultures DO eat bread, but SOUR dough bread, which has a totally different effect on insulin, high levels of which lower leptin, a neurohormone that signals satiation and the desire to exercise. Sourdough is fermented with lactobacillus (but some are fermented with other forms of bacillus), instead of yeast, which is a fungus, and lowers the glycemic index of the wheat starch as well as predigests the proteins for easier digestion. So, actually, there is quite a lot more to this interview than what was mentioned above.

Nutrition can often become a religion, and then common sense and open mindedness fall out the window. Its unfortunate. No one is suggesting that the holy trinity of high starch, vegan and no oil/low fat is somehow wrong, so I'm not sure why the vitriol on this forum about this topic. Some people just can't metabolize flour, sugar or grass grains very well. ITS GOING TO BE OK THAT THEY CAN'T. IT REALLY IS. ITS OK IF YOU CAN.

[colonyofcells]

I do agree with avoiding refined foods like sweeteners, juice, refined flours, etc. I don't agree with the use of oil and refined protein found in vegan burgers recommended by Susan Peirce Thompson. Common sense observation of human civilizations for the last 10,000 years or so tells me that the majority will be able to eat whole grains ok including whole grain flours. Fermentation of grains and flours is practiced by many cultures but not all. For example, a mediterranean diet probably includes some pasta made from whole grain flours plus sourdough bread. In south america, they use nixtamalized corn (treated with alkali) and they consume hominy and also hominy flour (masa flour) in forms like corn tortillas. For thousands of years, people in south america thrived on their addiction to nixtamalized corn flour. Nixtamalized corn flour has fewer calories than other whole grain flours so corn tortillas are allowed even in the maximum weight loss diet. 1 corn tortilla is only about 50 calories. Only a tiny percentage of humans will be gluten intolerant. Most of us have evolved a saliva that digests whole grains so addiction to whole grains is natural and is part of our evolution so I am not sure why anyone should be worried about addiction to whole grain flours. Sugar is a good fuel which is probably why we evolved an addiction to sugar. Nothing wrong with addiction to unrefined fruits. I tend to take advantage of my evolved addiction to healthy unrefined foods rather than fight it so it is very easy for me.

[bbq]

The Kempner Diet with white sugar (ad libitum) as shown below:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/walter-kempner-md-founder-of-the-rice-diet/

“Eat More Starch” challenge with white bread (12 slices) as follows:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/dec/eatmorestarch.htm

Oh well, what's going on here?

[colonyofcells]

The Susan Peirce Thompson diet has similarities to the Maximum Weight Loss diet altho the Susan Peirce Thompson diet involves more work like weighing of foods and or measuring of foods. The mcdougall diet is much easier to follow because it does not involve weighing of foods and does not involve measuring of foods. It is probably better to emphasize healthy eating and healthy lifestyle over easier weight loss. People who exercise more usually don't have problems eating too much but tend to need to eat more and want to eat more so more concentrated forms of food like whole grain breads, pasta, etc. are helpful rather than harmful.

[chris.]

Nutrition can often become a religion, and then common sense and open mindedness fall out the window. Its unfortunate. No one is suggesting that the holy trinity of high starch, vegan and no oil/low fat is somehow wrong, so I'm not sure why the vitriol on this forum about this topic. Some people just can't metabolize flour, sugar or grass grains very well. ITS GOING TO BE OK THAT THEY CAN'T. IT REALLY IS. ITS OK IF YOU CAN.

We're united in that all of us here eschew animal products, right?

Let's focus on that.

Many days the bulk of my calories consist of foods containing flour, gluten, and fructose, and I've had continual success with this WOE.

Other people cannot tolerate these foods.

However, I really think the "all starches are not created equal" message that the anti-gluten crowd tries to project is distracting to the community. Not to mention how unintentionally classist it comes off... For a student surviving on close to minimum wage, I frankly don't have time to worry about food sensitivities, even if I indeed had them. I buy GMO corn, canned beans, conventional produce, and the cheapest french bread I can find in the bakery. But reading a lot of these posts here, I feel more and more alienated from the WFPB community at large because I'm not eating the "ideal."

[colonyofcells]

I don't believe there is evidence that gmo foods are harmful. With global warming, farmers are turning to the traditional saved seeds in seed banks that can withstand global warming and I am sure there will also be gmo seeds invented to try to withstand global warming. I also eat some canned food even though the liner (whether bpa or non bpa) is probably harmful. The replacements for bpa are probably also harmful. Organic farmers are allowed to use natural pesticides which are also harmful. The current anti gluten fad will probably go away since only a tiny percentage of people are gluten sensitive. Since Dr Mcdougall has the free program on this web site and the forums are also free, the mcdougall diet is probably also being used by lots of poor people. If cheap french bread is made from refined flour, can also get the micronutrients and fiber from other unrefined foods like beans, vegetables, etc.

[dailycarbs]

wellnesscoach, I don't know why you assume that I didn't listen carefully or hear "the science." I did. As for her credentials, many paleo advocates are equally well credentialed. That proves nothing. She is subjective and fast and loose with facts. In one study, she could not remeber if the subjects were rats or other rodents. Her main premise of an "addiction susceptibility scale" is pure conjecture, as far as I can tell. And of course, let's not forget she has something to sell. Not that there's anything wrong with that but it's something to note.

[colonyofcells]

Susan Peirce Thompson diet is similar to maximum weight loss except that she allows oil and oil is not allowed in McDougall diet. McDougall diet also discourages refined proteins like vegan burgers.

[wellnesscoach]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, everyone! First of all, its not "her diet." She's a severe food addict who studied a lot of science to figure out what was going on with her brain and how to stay in abstinence.

Some people's brains are WAY more addictive/reactive to dopamine flooding substances than others. I learned this many years ago from an emotional trauma point of view, and this interview highlighted some research with rats and trauma that echoed that. That was pretty interesting to me. Like Susan has said, if you aren't a high-on-the-scale addictive personality, you might yawn at all of this. But trust, me, as a person who has struggled with sugar addiction in many forms my whole life (sugar, flour, alcohol), it IS true for some of us.

Also, another angle that is starting to show up making this conversation even more relevant is info about how wheat and other grains are grown, with glyphosate (monsantos round up). Obesity and food addiction has grown every year linerally since the introduction of this in mass scale in agricultural practices since the early/mid 70's. This lecture is truly eye opening on that subject, as well as GMOs. VERY much worth a listen.

Its wonderful that people are having such amazing success with the mcdougall diet. I suspect that after a fair amount of time healing leaky gut issues, one may be able to eat refined grains again, esp. if organic. I'm not there yet. Its very clear that many are. Its ALSO very clear that MANY people today have all kinds of health problems directly connected to leaky gut issues which is caused by GMOs, glyphosates, refined sugar and flour. As a science geek/medical and holistic professional, this stuff fascinates me. I don't have TV, so this is what entertains me, yielding to "encyclopedia brain."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU5FASJyDI4

[colonyofcells]

In mcdougall diet, my guess is refined grains are not allowed (but tolerated for emergencies) but whole grains, whole grain flours are allowed. Maximum Weight Loss diet does not allow whole grain flours (except corn tortillas). The main teaching in mcdougall diet is the type of food and not gmo and not about going organic. I heard organic farming is only 1% of usa agriculture so it is not practical to tell people to use only organic food. There is no evidence for the many evils being attributed to gmo.

[bbq]

Carcinogenicity of tetrachlorvinphos, parathion, malathion, diazinon, and glyphosate
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045%2815%2970134-8/abstract

Glyphosate has been detected in the blood and urine of agricultural workers, indicating absorption. Soil microbes degrade glyphosate to aminomethylphosphoric acid (AMPA). Blood AMPA detection after poisonings suggests intestinal microbial metabolism in humans. Glyphosate and glyphosate formulations induced DNA and chromosomal damage in mammals, and in human and animal cells in vitro. One study reported increases in blood markers of chromosomal damage (micronuclei) in residents of several communities after spraying of glyphosate formulations. Bacterial mutagenesis tests were negative. Glyphosate, glyphosate formulations, and AMPA induced oxidative stress in rodents and in vitro. The Working Group classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans” (Group 2A).

Fingers crossed for GMO foods.