Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

[dstewart]

Your tax dollars are not paying for poor people to go to Disney World! They are paying for wars and corporate subsidies!

In the federal budget, income transfers through Social Security and welfare exceed spending on defense by $522 billion. (And $161 billion of what's called defense spending, 21 percent of defense spending, is actually spending on veterans.) Defense spending is 21 percent of the federal budget.

Corporate welfare totals $100 billion if one counts very generously. That's about 7 percent of what's spent on income transfers. It's 26 percent of what the federal government spends on what is technically classified as "welfare."

Our tax dollars are going to pay for defense and corporate welfare; one of those should be ended, and the other is one of the three legitimate functions of government. Welfare for individuals is not a legitimate function of government, and that too should be ended. More of our tax dollars are going out in transfers to people, including welfare, than to both defense and corporate welfare combined.

And this age of entitlement narrative needs to end.

When the growth of "entitlements" ends, maybe we can end the narrative. The narrative is real.

We have to work together so that all have food, shelter, medical care. The capitalist way is not working. There is no rational reason we should be fighting for abundant resources.

The capitalist way is the only way to actually provide food, shelter, and medical care, and to rationally allocate resources. Resources are not only abundant, but scarce. Scarcity is not a myth or illusion, and the notion that it is is not secret wisdom but ignorance in abundance. Resources require work to create and turn to use--they are not free and laying out. You say "there's no reason we should be fighting for abundant resources." In one sense, you're right--we should not fight for them, but instead use the price system to allocate resources. But you actually mean that capitalism is "fighting for resources." It's not--it is government, socialist allocation that is a fight for resources, and is the method of resource allocation by violence; it also ends up massively wasting resources, as socialist economies have proven abundantly.

You said that there's evidence that most wealthy people either inherited their wealth, are criminals, or just lucky. Really? What's the evidence? Most wealthy people, the great majority, are recently wealthy--they did not inherit their wealth, but developed something that people want. The areas of the country that were dependent on slave labor were the poorest areas--slavery actually destroyed wealth. The notion that the wealthy are in general criminals is too stupid to bother refuting, and as it's offered only as an arbitrary claim with no substance supporting it, that's just as well.

[eXtremE]

Why do we even need billionaires? Is any one person worth that much? Excess capitalism creates greed and waste. I suppose if you are rich tho, to hell with all the poor ppl. I have my private jet, my private yacht, my 10 mansions, my 100 cars,....some of these ppl are sick psychologically (seriously). They literally hoard money and no amount is ever enough.

More of our tax dollars are going out in transfers to people, including welfare, than to both defense and corporate welfare combined.

I do not believe this. Provide a credible link!

[colonyofcells]

Where tax dollars go :
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

[Jumpstart]

Someone has to pay for various entitlement program and at the moment 43.3% of American families pay NO federal income tax. And it's the top 50% of income earners that pay 97% of all income taxes. In fact the richest pay the greatest portion of federal tax. Here is a couple of sites that will tell you who pays and who doesn't and how much is contributed by each income group.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes

[eXtremE]

Yes, but everyone who works pays into social security (thank you FDR). Many Poor ppl pay no federal income tax bc the rich ppl they work for won't pay them a decent wage so what do you expect? LOL Pay ppl a decent wage with decent benefits and stop hoarding all the money at the top and you will see a steep decline in the welfare rolls. Go to youTube and watch how some these these super wealthy ppl live....makes me nauseous!

[zumacraig]

Ah politics! After 59 years I have found that listening to a well spoken person extolling the left position makes sense. A well spoken person extolling the right position makes sense. There is truth to be found in both positions. There is exaggeration and puffery on both sides. I listen to the people blaming right wing ideas for our current economic situation. I listen to the people on the right blaming socialist ideas for the current state of the economy. There is truth in both perspectives. There is corporate greed and influence. There is a large class of people believing they are "entitled."
No one is going to convince anyone here to switch ideological sides. We are all preaching to ourselves. Can we possible agree on what's for dinner and let the rest go?
I vote for hash browns and brussel sprouts.
f1jim

Well, we could, but lots of folks don't have food for dinner, so I think the conversation is not over. And, there is not truth in the middle. The truth is the truth and it's not about greed or entitlement. You are so misinformed.

[zumacraig]

Your tax dollars are not paying for poor people to go to Disney World! They are paying for wars and corporate subsidies!

In the federal budget, income transfers through Social Security and welfare exceed spending on defense by $522 billion. (And $161 billion of what's called defense spending, 21 percent of defense spending, is actually spending on veterans.) Defense spending is 21 percent of the federal budget.

Corporate welfare totals $100 billion if one counts very generously. That's about 7 percent of what's spent on income transfers. It's 26 percent of what the federal government spends on what is technically classified as "welfare."

Our tax dollars are going to pay for defense and corporate welfare; one of those should be ended, and the other is one of the three legitimate functions of government. Welfare for individuals is not a legitimate function of government, and that too should be ended. More of our tax dollars are going out in transfers to people, including welfare, than to both defense and corporate welfare combined.

And this age of entitlement narrative needs to end.

When the growth of "entitlements" ends, maybe we can end the narrative. The narrative is real.

We have to work together so that all have food, shelter, medical care. The capitalist way is not working. There is no rational reason we should be fighting for abundant resources.

The capitalist way is the only way to actually provide food, shelter, and medical care, and to rationally allocate resources. Resources are not only abundant, but scarce. Scarcity is not a myth or illusion, and the notion that it is is not secret wisdom but ignorance in abundance. Resources require work to create and turn to use--they are not free and laying out. You say "there's no reason we should be fighting for abundant resources." In one sense, you're right--we should not fight for them, but instead use the price system to allocate resources. But you actually mean that capitalism is "fighting for resources." It's not--it is government, socialist allocation that is a fight for resources, and is the method of resource allocation by violence; it also ends up massively wasting resources, as socialist economies have proven abundantly.

You said that there's evidence that most wealthy people either inherited their wealth, are criminals, or just lucky. Really? What's the evidence? Most wealthy people, the great majority, are recently wealthy--they did not inherit their wealth, but developed something that people want. The areas of the country that were dependent on slave labor were the poorest areas--slavery actually destroyed wealth. The notion that the wealthy are in general criminals is too stupid to bother refuting, and as it's offered only as an arbitrary claim with no substance supporting it, that's just as well.

The problem is the system. We have an irrational system that for the last 300 years, over it's cycles, has consistently led to a huge gap between poor and rich. The top 1% have what they have through luck, inheritance and theft. The initial settler's came on the dime of European rich. Those settler's took the land here for free. This land and the capital made off it by slave labor has been passed down from generation to generation. It's bequeathed to offspring to avoid capital gains taxes. So there's one way the rich don't pay. And, the reason the south was/is so poor is precisely because they are a microcosm of the larger country. A few got rich because they had free labor from African humans torn from their country/families and forced to work in America under threat of torture or death. The majority of people in the south were/are scrapping by while plantation owners prospered. Not to mention they've been made to be the scapegoat of all of America's other problems, in particular, racism.

We just have an absolutely irrational mythological system based on some magic hand of the market. It's made up and enforced to keep those in power and those who are poor in their place. We have corporations that are making record profits and none of this is being given to those who do the actual work for the company. In fact, workers are being pushed more and more to do more for less pay. I'm sure we've all had that happen to us. So, do blame a group of people who've made poor decisions in a system that's stacked against them is not working. We need to change the system so we all benefit and all can work according to their abilities. There's more than enough for everyone. It will be a lot of continued work to get there. Then maybe we can decide on dinner. I'm not willing to just let political narratives determine the course of history as people are starving, dying, worked to death, depressed, suicidal etc. all because the world we live in is a nightmare for most. It has to stop and real conversations need to happen. We've got to get beyond blame and really look at the causes for poverty in our country and the world. The research points to capitalism being the culprit...or at least lack of real democracy and lack of an informed citizenry.

[eXtremE]

Now, they wanna do away with the estate tax, LMAO! So what if I, Christy Walton,inherited over 18 billion after my husband was killed in a plane crash. When I die, I want to leave all my billions to my relatives and I don't want them to pay any taxes on this money. I do give some of my billions that I did not have to work for to some non profit organizations that do not benefit the poor directly. I have more money than any one human could ever spend in a lifetime and I have my money working making me even more money. No physical hard work in my future. I am rich forever and so are my descendants forever rich as long as they keep passing the money down and growing it.

[zumacraig]

Where tax dollars go :
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

http://www.itep.org/whopays/full_report.php


Above is another link that focuses more on state income. What was found by this nonpartisan group is that state tax systems are regressive, meaning the working poor pay more proportionally than the rich. That's not even considering the middle/working class who are able to 'afford' to pay hire taxes, but it keeps them from advancing. The point is that if we keep the system we have, we have to look at it rationally and see if it is doing what it's supposed to. A comment above said that capitalism is the only way. That's just pure delusion and reactionary thinking. Why poor and middle class folks continue to defend the rich in this country while working for their undemocratic corporations, shouldering most of the tax burden and ignoring the very real social costs of such a system is so scary and sad to me. Debilitatingly sad. We have got to come together and work for the betterment of all of us and THINK this stuff through rather than regurgitate what some talk show says. Most of us are struggling and there's no reason for it. Even if I was rich, I wouldn't want to live in a world like this. It's our world.

[Jumpstart]

“a new report from the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank based in Washington D.C., which annually reviews the average value of welfare benefits in each of the 50 states.

A combination of food stamps, temporary cash grants, WIC, and housing assistance is worth a pre-tax value more than $30,000 in 16 states. In Hawaii, the most generous state, a working family of three would have to earn almost $61,000 just to be even with the $50,000 in welfare the government hands out.”


http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf

[dteresa]

Unless the poor and the middle class want to be entrepreneurs and start their own business, they need investors to provide jobs for them. Except of course for those fifty percent or so of the population who are working for the government in some way and are paid by tax dollars. Where would people get jobs if not for the "rich" who some insist are selfish.

If someone knocked on your door while you and your loved ones were celebrating thanksgiving and walked to the table and took the amount of food they, not you, decided that you were obligated to donate to strangers based on their idea, not yours, of what was right, for a person you do not know and whose circumstances you do not know I bet you would not be real happy. And whose decision was, of course, backed up by armed men to whom the court has given this power.

Bill Gates didn't start out as a millionaire. He is really smart and invented something you most likely use every day. Lots of people like what he created so he makes lots of money. He did not steal it. If he did, put him in jail. But some seem to begrudge him his talent and the rewards of that talent. Sports figures also have a talent and if people want to pay them enormous sums to watch them throw a ball around then more power to them. No one has to go to a basket ball or football game. And if companies pay them obscene amounts of money to say they eat Wheaties or wear a certain kind of sneaker and people are dumb enough to purchase those products on the say so of a celebrity then, who cares?

And ordinary people like me work and save all our lives and want to leave something to our children but even from us, the government takes and takes because some politician wants to get elected and others decide that their brand of charity is the only way to deal with poverty. And our children, according to some, are not entitled to what their parents worked for but some liberal decides that someone else should get the fruit of parents hard work. And no one differentiates between those whose circumstances might be decided by the whims of fate and those whose selfish or immoral or stupid behavior places them in a position where they don't just need a temporary hand up but a permanent hand out.

Why do some care so much that millionaires have millions? Why do some see all rich people as crooks? Who cares if they leave all their money to their children. I don't. I didn't earn it. I didn't invest it. There is no reason I deserve any of it.

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

didi

[bbq]

Maybe it's a good idea to find out how did money get created in the first place:

The Money Fix (2009) - IMDb

https://dotsub.com/view/38d7177f-869c-4922-8424-9795986de2f2

[dailycarbs]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ns/281780/

[eXtremE]

Yeah, but many ppl still say Bill Gates is a thief in a sense if you ask me....ever hear of Gary Kildall?

Btw, who works for the super wealthy and generates their vast fortunes...poor hard working ppl ofc who some of these greedy ppl will not even pay a livable wage to.

[eXtremE]

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

didi

Didi,

This Thatcher quote you write indicates a complete lack of any understanding of socialism. Do some research and think about this a little bit. Is this statement the end of the conversation? Should we stop there and just listen to some uninformed (deluded?) statement of a politician? I'm not willing to. There is not excuse for the richest country in the world to have any poor people at all.

You are right that the middle class is sucked dry. It's not liberals taking your hard earned money away and giving it to the poor. Really think and look into the assumptions you hold. They don't hold up! And nothing will change until conservatives like you actually educate yourselves about what's going on and turn your anger towards those who maintain this irrational economic system and not on the poor or the liberals or whoever is the scapegoat of the week.

Here is a great article that shows where taxes are spent. Pittance is spent on poor folks and veterans.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2 ... rking-poor

Didi, are you not on social security retirement yourself? How do you feel about ppl like Ted Cruz wanting to privatize it, give you a voucher for your medicare, or ppl like Rick what's his name calling it a ponzi scheme. Let them start talking about taking this away from you and you will start singing a different tune I do believe and so will so many other ppl who praise capitalism. I do not despise capitalism but it has many faults IMO. The super greedy ppl at the top of the economic food chain get to live a life of luxury while the rest of us are fighting over the crumbs.