Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby dteresa » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:18 pm

An illness can destroy your savings. Being injured and maimed in a war might make you dependent on others. Loss of a job in a poor economy with little hope of getting another at your previous salary can wreak havoc with your standard of living. Minimum wage jobs might not supply a family with enough money to pay rent, eat, seek medical care etc. All good reasons for the community to lend a hand. Such things could happen to anyone. By lend a hand I mean a hand up. I see no moral obligation to provide necessities so people can use what they do have to take vacations or buy items you, who are helping, cannot afford or in your own financial circumstances would not purchase.

And then there are others whose foolish and irresponsible behavior for some reason, thanks to the present political climate, apparently entitles them to the taxpayers hard earned money. And who have the attitude that society owes them. Something that in another time and place would never have been tolerated.

didi
dteresa
 
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:22 am

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby hazelrah » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:38 pm

VegMommy wrote:I think you misunderstood me. By "the same nonsense", I mean the idea that it's impossible to get ahead. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.


I did midunderstand you, but the social movements you seem to be deriding are part of the reason that it was, is, and, hopefully, always will be, wrong. People found a way to transcend their circumstances by enlisting and accepting the good will of people who were earnestly trying to improve the world around them. They made a lot of mistakes, but they were more than just random bits of protoplasm responding to their basest drives.

Mark
...the process that creates this boredom that we see in the world now may very well be a self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brainwashing, created by a world totalitarian government based on money, ... Wallace Shawn
http://www.anginamonologues.net
User avatar
hazelrah
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:04 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby Spiral » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:43 pm

hazelrah wrote:I did midunderstand you, but the social movements you seem to be deriding are part of the reason that it was, is, and, hopefully, always will be, wrong. People found a way to transcend their circumstances by enlisting and accepting the good will of people who were earnestly trying to improve the world around them. They made a lot of mistakes, but they were more than just random bits of protoplasm responding to their basest drives.

Mark


If you ask 100 people, "Do you think we should try to improve our circumstances and try to improve our society?" You will likely receive 100 answers of "Yes!"

If you ask 100 people, "What sort of ideas do you have that would lead to an improvement in our circumstances, an improvement in our society?" You will likely receive at least 100 answers.

Some ideas sound good in theory but don't work well in practice.

If someone criticizes ideas that have performed poorly in practice even though they appeared to be unobjectionable in theory, this does not mean that this someone is opposed to progress. It only means that one should be willing to review the history of ideas with sobriety.

I am sure that the followers of Hugo Chavez thought that Chavez's ideas for Venezuela sounded pretty good when they listened to his speeches. Some people might have found speeches made by the Greek politicians currently running Greece inspiring. But the question people should ask is whether the ideas being offered have potential pitfalls.

If I tell people that everyone can have all of the health care they want for free, the instinctive reaction people have, given the greedy, grasping, selfish nature that human beings possess, is to say, "Sounds great." But a sober person will say, "What's the catch? The cost of health care isn't being eliminated under your proposal. The cost of health care is simply being transferred to someone else?" And then a whole host of questions and criticisms would flow from there. But that's if this skeptic isn't worried about being accused of being a naysayer.
User avatar
Spiral
 
Posts: 3005
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby hazelrah » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:07 pm

Spiral wrote:
If you ask 100 people, "Do you think we should try to improve our circumstances and try to improve our society?" You will likely receive 100 answers of "Yes!"

If you ask 100 people, "What sort of ideas do you have that would lead to an improvement in our circumstances, an improvement in our society?" You will likely receive at least 100 answers.



I didn't think speculation was involved. The sentiment I understood was that we would have been better off if collective efforts like Occupy Wall Street and the liberalism of the 60's had never happened. That's an outright lie. We are better off today precisely because of things like Miranda rights and the efforts of the brave people who walked accross the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma 50 years ago. It was not nonsense, just as all of us here are better off today because we found people who are unwilling to remain silent while healthcare is dictated by an industry that needed to develop a business model. So the lesson for me upon hearing the 100 disparate responses is to evaluate each and formulate my own, and then let them all churn through the political process. And, luckily for me, that is the legal and socially acceptable way that the discrepancy is resolved. When I'm really lucky, reasonable people get elected and I can believe that I will get the chance to see retirement. When I'm unlucky, unfettered free-market demigogues get elected with a passion to improve the world by eliminating government and the savings that I've spent many decades building dissolves overnight as does my hope for retirement.

Mark
...the process that creates this boredom that we see in the world now may very well be a self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brainwashing, created by a world totalitarian government based on money, ... Wallace Shawn
http://www.anginamonologues.net
User avatar
hazelrah
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:04 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby zumacraig » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:55 pm

dteresa wrote:An illness can destroy your savings. Being injured and maimed in a war might make you dependent on others. Loss of a job in a poor economy with little hope of getting another at your previous salary can wreak havoc with your standard of living. Minimum wage jobs might not supply a family with enough money to pay rent, eat, seek medical care etc. All good reasons for the community to lend a hand. Such things could happen to anyone. By lend a hand I mean a hand up. I see no moral obligation to provide necessities so people can use what they do have to take vacations or buy items you, who are helping, cannot afford or in your own financial circumstances would not purchase.

And then there are others whose foolish and irresponsible behavior for some reason, thanks to the present political climate, apparently entitles them to the taxpayers hard earned money. And who have the attitude that society owes them. Something that in another time and place would never have been tolerated.

didi


Your tax dollars are not paying for poor people to go to Disney World! They are paying for wars and corporate subsidies! And this age of entitlement narrative needs to end. We have to work together so that all have food, shelter, medical care. The capitalist way is not working. There is no rational reason we should be fighting for abundant resources.
zumacraig
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby zumacraig » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:00 pm

hazelrah wrote:
Spiral wrote:
If you ask 100 people, "Do you think we should try to improve our circumstances and try to improve our society?" You will likely receive 100 answers of "Yes!"

If you ask 100 people, "What sort of ideas do you have that would lead to an improvement in our circumstances, an improvement in our society?" You will likely receive at least 100 answers.



I didn't think speculation was involved. The sentiment I understood was that we would have been better off if collective efforts like Occupy Wall Street and the liberalism of the 60's had never happened. That's an outright lie. We are better off today precisely because of things like Miranda rights and the efforts of the brave people who walked accross the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma 50 years ago. It was not nonsense, just as all of us here are better off today because we found people who are unwilling to remain silent while healthcare is dictated by an industry that needed to develop a business model. So the lesson for me upon hearing the 100 disparate responses is to evaluate each and formulate my own, and then let them all churn through the political process. And, luckily for me, that is the legal and socially acceptable way that the discrepancy is resolved. When I'm really lucky, reasonable people get elected and I can believe that I will get the chance to see retirement. When I'm unlucky, unfettered free-market demigogues get elected with a passion to improve the world by eliminating government and the savings that I've spent many decades building dissolves overnight as does my hope for retirement.

Mark


Very well put and a great example of how we are all struggling in one sense or another...for no real reason. The good things we have gained over the last 50 years is precisely because of liberal politics. Not to say that liberals are always right.

Also, it's such a naïve mindset to actually think one knows what it's like to be poor. How can smart people believe this nonsense? People who have seen the light when it comes to the food industry? Blaming others is just so divisive and keeps us occupied while the powers that be maintain the status quo.

Craig
zumacraig
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby dteresa » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:17 pm

It depends on what gains you are talking about as to whether one thinks they are good.

didi
dteresa
 
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:22 am

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby eXtremE » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:39 pm

zumacraig wrote:
dteresa wrote:An illness can destroy your savings. Being injured and maimed in a war might make you dependent on others. Loss of a job in a poor economy with little hope of getting another at your previous salary can wreak havoc with your standard of living. Minimum wage jobs might not supply a family with enough money to pay rent, eat, seek medical care etc. All good reasons for the community to lend a hand. Such things could happen to anyone. By lend a hand I mean a hand up. I see no moral obligation to provide necessities so people can use what they do have to take vacations or buy items you, who are helping, cannot afford or in your own financial circumstances would not purchase.

And then there are others whose foolish and irresponsible behavior for some reason, thanks to the present political climate, apparently entitles them to the taxpayers hard earned money. And who have the attitude that society owes them. Something that in another time and place would never have been tolerated.

didi


Your tax dollars are not paying for poor people to go to Disney World! They are paying for wars and corporate subsidies! And this age of entitlement narrative needs to end. We have to work together so that all have food, shelter, medical care. The capitalist way is not working. There is no rational reason we should be fighting for abundant resources.
Right on...I can't see why other ppl can't see this. Thom Hartman has been saying what you're saying for many years now. Ppl actually think poor ppl on welfare are living these extravagant lifestyles with their tax dollars. When I hear ppl say let the churches and communities lend a hand....they will do it.... Keep big government out....I LOL! Look how many mega churches and pastors have been busted. They are just as greedy as anyone else and they steal even more money from poor ppl telling them to give money and the lord will give back to you 10 fold. That is so foolish and complete nonsense. I never give any of my money to any churches, but I will give 10 or 20 dollars to the homeless guy on the street corner from my hand to his hand. Keep in mind that most wars have been fought over religion. The next major wars I believe will be fought over things like food and water.
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
User avatar
eXtremE
 
Posts: 3525
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:05 am

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby Wildapple » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:22 pm

I don't really understand why the OP posted this question, to start a discussion, I suppose. There will always be poor people and rich people and those in between. I was the "poor". When I started first grade as the child of a single mom, I had A Dress and a pair of shoes and was lucky to have that. I knew that an education was the only way out, so I studied hard and I am not the "poor" any more. To my way of thinking those who are "humiliated" will do the same.
User avatar
Wildapple
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 7:07 pm
Location: Down Home

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby eXtremE » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:30 am

If we allow things to continue in America like what is going on now, the middle class will go the way of the dodo bird. You will have the super wealthy and then the rest of us just struggling to survive and make ends meet.
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
User avatar
eXtremE
 
Posts: 3525
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:05 am

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby petero » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:21 am

katgirl55 wrote:There is such a thing as personal responsibility and accountability. There are things outside of our control that affect us every day. There are also things in our control, and if they are not working it is up to us to make changes.


That's right. That change is called "revolution". It's not what you meant, but see what I did there? :D

I'm late to the party and I try not to engage in necromancy so I just wanted to post this relevant link about the punishment of children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekutmSx ... ubs_digest
It's easy to be a naive idealist. It's easy to be a cynical realist. It's quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame. -- Marie-Louise von Franz
User avatar
petero
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:45 am
Location: Gatlinburg, TN

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby zumacraig » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:19 pm

petero wrote:
katgirl55 wrote:There is such a thing as personal responsibility and accountability. There are things outside of our control that affect us every day. There are also things in our control, and if they are not working it is up to us to make changes.


That's right. That change is called "revolution". It's not what you meant, but see what I did there? :D

I'm late to the party and I try not to engage in necromancy so I just wanted to post this relevant link about the punishment of children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekutmSx ... ubs_digest



Viva! Thanks for posting the video. Excellent point about blaming poor folks for the crappy economy and treating them like children.
zumacraig
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby zumacraig » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:56 pm

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/go ... story.html

Gwyneth Paltrow attempted to live on EBT for a week and couldn't make it. Ironically, she went off the wagon and ate chicken.
zumacraig
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby f1jim » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:25 pm

Ah politics! After 59 years I have found that listening to a well spoken person extolling the left position makes sense. A well spoken person extolling the right position makes sense. There is truth to be found in both positions. There is exaggeration and puffery on both sides. I listen to the people blaming right wing ideas for our current economic situation. I listen to the people on the right blaming socialist ideas for the current state of the economy. There is truth in both perspectives. There is corporate greed and influence. There is a large class of people believing they are "entitled."
No one is going to convince anyone here to switch ideological sides. We are all preaching to ourselves. Can we possible agree on what's for dinner and let the rest go?
I vote for hash browns and brussel sprouts.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11349
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

Postby soul food » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:55 pm

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/the- ... d-poverty/

he numbers are staggering: US is ‘world leader’ in child poverty
Paul Bucheit


rica’s wealth grew by 60 percent in the past six years, by over $30 trillion. In approximately the same time, the number of homeless children has also grown by 60 percent.

Financier and CEO Peter Schiff said, “People don’t go hungry in a capitalist economy.” The 16 million kids on food stamps know what it’s like to go hungry. Perhaps, some in Congress would say, those children should be working. “There is no such thing as a free lunch,” insisted Georgia Representative Jack Kingston, even for schoolkids, who should be required to “sweep the floor of the cafeteria” (as they actually do at a charter school in Texas).


The U.S. has one of the highest relative child poverty rates in the developed world. As UNICEF reports, “[Children's] material well-being is highest in the Netherlands and in the four Nordic countries and lowest in Latvia, Lithuania, Romania and the United States.”

Over half of public school students are poor enough to qualify for lunch subsidies, and almost half of black children under the age of six are living in poverty.

$5 a Day for Food, But Congress Thought it was Too Much.

Nearly half of all food stamp recipients are children, and they averaged about $5 a day for their meals before the 2014 farm bill cut $8.6 billion (over the next ten years) from the food stamp program.

In 2007 about 12 of every 100 kids were on food stamps. Today it’s 20 of every 100.


soul food
soul food
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:45 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


cron

Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.