Do limits on EBT of where and what "humiliate the poor"?

[Jumpstart]

Apparently many states have passed new laws to limit what EBT and other program users can buy or where they can use their benefits. The following story talks about the various limits in a number of states. It's a serious limit when they can't use benefits on cruise ships and tattoo parlors....not.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-rush-to-humiliate-the-poor/2015/04/07/8795b192-dd67-11e4-a500-1c5bb1d8ff6a_story.html?hpid=z3

[dteresa]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47605

Above is another discussion along those lines on this board.

Evidently some see sound fiscal policy as humiliating to the poor. Those working families and others who are struggling to make ends meet and need assistance are going to shop wisely. Others who are playing the system will not, so the rules try to prevent those people from taking advantage of the tax payer.

Many years ago, my daughter who was in fourth grade at the time, wanted to go to disney world. I told her it was just too expensive and not something we could afford. She mentioned a family whose kids got certain tickets which entitled them to a free lunch at school. They were going to disney world for several days which would require missing those days of school. She wanted to know how come they could go and we couldn't. Try explaining that to a fourth grader.

didi

[zumacraig]

Classic issue that keeps us all divided and blaming poor folks for their situation. Ironically, our tax dollars pay for a minuscule amount of welfare for poor people. They do, however, pay for corporate bailouts, huge defense contracts etc. At the same time, entertainment is a high priority for folks that really can't afford it. The family that's going to Disney world that gets free lunch is probably not a true story. If it were, can you blame them? We have to start looking at these issues as a community and see how we are living in a system the affects everyone to some degree or another. I was recently in line behind a woman with a child using EBT. It was a nightmare for her using two cards, unable to spend more than a certain amount and unable to buy certain things. She wasn't buy a bunch of crap either. Even if she was, can I really blame her. Anyway, she was upset, the cashier was upset and the backed up line was upset. Did this woman make bad choices that put us all in this position? Maybe. Have I made bad choices, hell yes. She's just getting the brunt of system that is rigged. I'm just above water in my life. Worked hard to no avail of 'making it'. I've got 3 degrees am white and male. I had all the opportunity in the world, but I'm part of the dwindling middle class paying tons in loans that were supposed to be an investment, but turned out to be just debt. I'm inundated with advertisements that tell me I need to do this that and other to make my kids happy. Going to Disney is one of them. The social pressure to go to Disneyland for parents is ridiculous. I won't do it, but do I blame the poor folks for doing it? Hell no. This whole notion of different rules for the rich and poor has to stop.

[dteresa]

The disney world story is true. I knew the family and the kids did miss school to go.

Yes the poor have different rules. They can't spend like the rich. And if middle class families who are earning good livings spend stupidly and don't save for a rainy day, they too will end up poor. As I keep trying to tell my own kids. We all have to suffer in this really lousy economy and you hit the nail on the head with the school loan comment. And if it were in my power I wouldn't give ten cents in benefits or tax breaks to any company who ships work overseas. Whether or not american workers have priced themselves out of the job market and what the effects are of poor management is another story.

I helped a young woman once whose husband worked every day. They had a small child, were on food stamps and wic and received free medical care for the child, not the adults. I taught her how to shop sales and prepare meals with what was cheapest at the market. She did so well that between cash and food stamps the family ate well. And saved money.

Everyone, not just food stamp recipients should have some kind of education about healthful foods, wise shopping, saving and postponing pleasure and reward. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived this way. Many came from foreign countries where they really knew what it was like to be poor. You cannot blame those without knowledge about how to spend wisely. But you can, if you are paying for it, put limits on how it is spent.

didi

[CarrotTopsRGreen]

I agree with you, Didi. My husband and I are saving for our retirement and forego a lot of the entertainments that we see others in our age group indulging themselves in, while at the same time complaining they don't have enough money. Life is a series of choices. Some people are fortunate to have many resources, and others are not. Those who are not need to make more considered choices about how they will spend those resources in order to live a healthy and productive life. It's just the way it is. I was a single mom of three for years on a low salary. We did not live extravagantly, but the kids and I always had a roof over our heads, clothing, heat, adequate and nutritious food, and no debt.

[zumacraig]

I agree with you, Didi. My husband and I are saving for our retirement and forego a lot of the entertainments that we see others in our age group indulging themselves in, while at the same time complaining they don't have enough money. Life is a series of choices. Some people are fortunate to have many resources, and others are not. Those who are not need to make more considered choices about how they will spend those resources in order to live a healthy and productive life. It's just the way it is. I was a single mom of three for years on a low salary. We did not live extravagantly, but the kids and I always had a roof over our heads, clothing, heat, adequate and nutritious food, and no debt.

It's not 'the way it is'. That kind of mindset just makes us complacent to structures and systems that keep us miserable and grasping for survival. When will we work together as a community so that all have what they need and value health and real entertainment? Individualism mythology is insidious and effects all of us. It's amazing how y'all can say you struggle, but then not relate with other poorer folks who struggle too. If you really care about your tax dollars and not being able to save for retirement look at the system that requires that. Look at where tax money really goes. Most of it for the last 15 years has gone to war. Why aren't we decrying that rather than the poor family having the audacity to acquiesce to society and take their kids to disney world for some false promised relief from a life of poverty? If one is suffering, then all of us are suffering. People don't make choices in a vacuum and my hunch is that many of us are one catastrophe away from poverty and the choices poor folks make. As the article linked below surmises; it's not choices that lead to poverty…it's that poverty leads to questionable choices.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ns/281780/

[katgirl55]

There is such a thing as personal responsibility and accountability. There are things outside of our control that affect us every day. There are also things in our control, and if they are not working it is up to us to make changes.

Didi, I know someone who is on welfare, lives at her parents' house along with her husband and child in one bedroom, has no car, and yet manages to go to Disneyland at least four times per year for several days at a time. They stay at her father-in-law's house, so that saves on lodging costs, but I still cannot understand how and why they are able to go there so many times per year rather than save money for a car or an apartment. Ridiculous. But those are the kind of priorities that some people have.

[VegMommy]

Believe it or not, there was a time when accepting charity was considered humiliating BY the poor.

[Jumpstart]

It isn't just some poor who vacation often. I know a number of 30 year olds who live with their parents while working and spend their money on parties, clothes and vacations. They contribute absolutely nothing to the household and that means no housework either. Their mothers still make their meals, washes their clothes and cleans their rooms. We have developed a culture of entitlement and it has spread throughout the country across economic and social layers.

[zumacraig]

Okay, let's just stay deluded and stick with the tired, yet untrue, idea that poor folks are in that position because of the choices they've made. The system has nothing to do with it. I wish y'all would educate yourselves a bit about the causes of poverty in this country…the myth of scarcity, the social pressure to spend money on junk (like disneyland), the myth of the protestant work ethic. Just think a bit or read a sociology 101 book. Your arguments and anecdotes don't hold up yet you talk as if they are iron-clad.

By the same standard we hold 'the poor' to, I could ask 'why aren't you millionaires or billionaires?'. You're obviously not making the right choices if your not. But that would be ridiculous, because we know full well that not everyone can be a millionaire right? Or is it our bad choices? My point is that we are all struggling and make bad choices. Some are sitting in a good job, some are working three jobs. Most poor folks are not going to Disney World…and if they are, it's because they are succumbing to social pressure or because they want to have a moment of supposed happiness with their kids or it's because they don't care because they know they will always be poor. Disney World doesn't care, they want their money! Just like the food industry doesn't care. They want us all sick and addicted to salt, fat and sugar.

Also, what about the 'well off' who make horrible choices yet still do okay. People that declare bankruptcy. The people who pummeled our economy with toxic assets and the housing bubble. Or how about the CEOs who run a company into the ground, but leave with a severance in the millions. These choices cost taxpayers billions of dollars and ruin the lives of people who are playing by the 'rules, but we don't moan about them. We hold these folks to a different standard. That's not to mention the ridiculous credit card debt most Americans have. It's not just poor people who make bad choices. We all do. We can just either get away with it and keep our financial sins private and just project our shame on the poor…who, for what it's worth really have nothing to lose, so why not go to Disney World.

It's the structures and systems that we must change to decrease the suffering that comes from all angles of this society. We have to really ask and think critically about why there are poor folks, why the middle class is dwindling, why are we in debt, what historical and social forces are at work? etc. Polarization is such an obstacle these days and nothing is going to change unless we start a real discussion rather than the old narrative of 'poor folks are lazy and bad with money'.

[Katydid]

I had a roommate for a number of years who would not work as she was trying to get disability benefits from an old motorcycle accident. She was mad when Michigan switched from food stamps (which could be traded on the underground market like cash) to a debit card. So she began to sell her pain meds to the highest bidder (who would use them to get high), and used that money to get her cigarettes and pot. Such is the economy of the poor. Sigh. The moment her debit card was filled, she was off to the local meat market to buy steaks and chops. Except for potatoes, a fresh vegetable rarely crossed her plate.

This whole post kind of reminds me of the "Muffin Tops" episode of Seinfeld where Kramer couldn't give away the muffin bottoms to the homeless.

Kate

[zumacraig]

The derision for poor folks and the absolute inability to even think about their situation in this thread is astounding to me. My hunch is that any of us in that situation would do the same things.

[Jumpstart]

There are many people of all races and cultures who work their way out of poverty. The problem is wanting everything RIGHT NOW. Few are willing to put aside immediate gratification for future security. Take the many Asians, and Middle East people who come to this country with nothing. They can't even speak the language. But, through hard work and savings they come up with enough to start a business and work 100 hours a week each and every week putting whatever profits they make back into the business. It might take a decade, but the time comes when they hire others and start making money from other people's labor. That's what it's about, you either make money on other people's labor or other people's money. The alternate is simply to get a trade or profession and make a fair wage from your own labor. But, that won't get you rich and you'll be subject to that dread layoff. The big advantage you have in this country is the freedom to do whatever you want. That's why millions are still dying to come to this country because they know there aren't many place in this world that offer that freedom.

[zumacraig]

There are many people of all races and cultures who work their way out of poverty. The problem is wanting everything RIGHT NOW. Few are willing to put aside immediate gratification for future security. Take the many Asians, and Middle East people who come to this country with nothing. They can't even speak the language. But, through hard work and savings they come up with enough to start a business and work 100 hours a week each and every week putting whatever profits they make back into the business. It might take a decade, but the time comes when they hire others and start making money from other people's labor. That's what it's about, you either make money on other people's labor or other people's money. The alternate is simply to get a trade or profession and make a fair wage from your own labor. But, that won't get you rich and you'll be subject to that dread layoff. The big advantage you have in this country is the freedom to do whatever you want. That's why millions are still dying to come to this country because they know there aren't many place in this world that offer that freedom.

Life is 'better' in this country because we would not stand for the abysmal conditions of the third world. We are just above it though. People who 'make it' in this country are anomalies and the whole idea of 'making it' has arbitrary meanings. We are not free to do what we want to do. We're forced to sell our labor to the capitalist who does no work but live off our labor and the stock market (And that capitalist didn't work hard, they inherited or stole their capital) . Yet when they fail, the government (see tax payers) bail them out. However, the bailout money is not in the form of food stamps with stipulations on what the CEO can buy. These people ruin the economy time and time again, with no consequence, yet we blame the poor for being poor and making bad decisions.

And don't tell me about people coming to this country to 'make it'. You don't care about them. They are the people you are complaining about…the working poor, those on medicaid etc. Conservatives like you don't want them here in the first place. You think they are eating up the resources and taking all the jobs.

And, don't tell me about the protestant work ethic! It's bankrupt. It's almost impossible to save and get ahead in this country unless you are really lucky. The amount of work you put into it has no bearing. I've worked with poor folks who work 60 hours a week at menial jobs just to put food on the table. They've put more hours in than all the 1% combined. So don't use that tired argument about not working hard enough.

We have different rules for the poor. Read this article with an open mind and your antiquated, unsubstantiated claims about poor folks might change.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... -benefits/

[Jumpstart]

"As you think, so shall you become" This is a truth stated by many wise men and wise books down through the ages. You think there is no hope, and there is none. You think you can't win, and you'll lose. You think the system is fixed against you, and it will work out that way.