A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

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A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:46 am

Hi folks,

I hope to present, for your consideration, possibly new thoughts concerning Vitamin D. These considerations especially concern people like us, who are on a healthy diet. I supply references to support this new viewpoint.

Please allow me start my tome with an anecdotal case history, my own experience.

An anecdote

When I was 58, 9 years ago, I attended the Pritikin Longevity Center. Instructional lectures were presented by Dr. Jay Kenney, PhD nutritionist, and (our very own and wonderful) Jeff Novick. I found these lectures informative and entertaining, nay, spellbinding.

In one of those lectures at the Pritikin Center, I first learned that sunlight was very beneficial, for forming Vitamin D. I realized that I got nearly zero sunlight. Returning home, I changed my routine to run outdoors every day at noon, for one hour. I wore trunks and a T-shirt. Above 60 degrees, I didn't wear a T-shirt. Also, I started taking Pritikin vitamins, including 200 IU of vitamin D.

Two years later, at age 60, I attended the Pritikin Center again, in June. My doctor assigned to me there, said "You're a skinny guy. Why don't you get a DEXA bone density check?" I had been running 4 miles a day, 7 days a week, for nearly 2 years. I thought "A bone density check? What a waste of money." Well, I got the test anyway.

The results of the test were shocking. My hips were at the bottom of osteopenia, almost to the osteoporosis range. My lower back was at the top of the osteopenia range, almost to normal. Oh, great! Almost normal! For 4 months, I didn't tell anyone. I felt like there was an osteoporosis stigma.

Why did I, a healthy active 60 year old man, have osteopenia? Was it because I became severely lactose intolerant at age 32, 2 years after starting the Pritikin diet, and I had low calcium intake (doubtful)? Why didn't 2 years of running, age 58 to 60, strengthen my bones? (DEXA bone density test is less sensitive to the inner sponge-like trabecular bone. Exercise tends to strengthen the inner trabecular bone, more than the hard outer shell, the cortical bone.)

I returned home, and my regular doctor gave me some blood tests to check for causes of osteopenia. Testosterone was right in the middle of the normal range. He gave me a Vitamin D blood test. 16 ng/ml, quite deficient. Note that the normal range is a question with some controversy. Dr. Fuhrman recently recommended the bottom normal of 25. Dr. McDougall recently recommended a bottom normal of 20. By any yardstick, 16 is deficient.

I saw my eye doctor for an annual checkup. He said I had cataracts. He said most doctors would recommend having them out then, but he would recommend watching them. I had noticed halo's around headlights of oncoming traffic, while driving at night. It developed so slowly that I didn't really notice it. (Happy ending: That was the last day I went in sunlight without dark wrap-around sunglasses. (Photogray's dont work. I was wearing photograys when the cataracts developed.) The next year, when I visited the eye doctor, he didn't mention cataracts. They went away, and the halo around the headlights went away also.)

I saw a dermatologist for a minor rash. The dermatologist asked if I would like him to squirt liquid nitrogen on some skin tags. I asked why. He said because the skin tags could be pre-cancerous. I said squirt away. He spent about 45 seconds happily squirting 7 or 8 skin tags, and charged my insurance $200.

I mention the cataracts and skin tags, to show that, in the prior 2 years, I had enough UV to have some forms of sun damage. But I did not have enough UV for my body to make a normal vitamin D level. Plus, I had been taking 200 IU vitamin D in Pritikin supplements. It is likely that my vitamin D had been much lower, for perhaps decades, prior to when I increased my sun exposure, at age 58.

Clearly, my body was making little vitamin D from sunlight. For the prior 2 years, I was in the sun one hour at noon, 7 days a week, wearing minimum clothing, rarely missing a day. The high altitude increases the UV. Most days are blue skies, especially in the summer in Salt Lake city. Utah has one of the highest melanoma rates. My vitamin D test was taken in June. I should have had plenty of UV and vitamin D.

Sunlight simply did not work for me. So, since age 60, I have taken 3000 IU Vitamin D3, and my blood level is about 35.

As an aside, 16 months after fixing my vitamin D deficiency, my severe lactose intolerance, dissappeared !! After carrying lactase pills for 29 years, and nearly a thousand bouts of painful diarrhea from accidental ingestion of small amounts of lactose, I no longer needed the pills. I could eat any amount of dairy with no issue. Of course, I only ate dairy while travelling or on some social occasions, when I broke the diet for convenience.

One item to draw from my case history, is that I appear to be deficient in vitamin D, in spite of perhaps even too much sunlight exposure.

It's only an anecote (one person's experience), but it's my anecdote. Thanks for reading this far, at least.

Supporting information

Before introducing the (possibly) new consideration that I promised, please allow me to provide some supporting information.

Healthy diet increases carotinoids in the skin

A Pharmanex machine can measure antioxidant levels in the body. (Interesting video from Dr. Oz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRkRDc_GHG8 ) The more fruits and veggies a person eats, the higher the machine would read. Typical readings are roughly 4000 to 15,000. I had a reading probably 15 years ago. The guy runnnig the Pharmanex machine's mouth dropped open. He said he had never seen anyone with a reading as high as mine. My reading was 70,000.

The Pharmanex machine works by shining a blue laser light on the skin at the palm. The blue light is not strong, and is entirely safe. The machine looks for green light coming back, out of the skin. If the skin contains carotenoids, the blue light is absorbed by the carotenoid, causing it to fluoresce, and emit green light. The more carotenoids, the more green light, and the more antioxidants in the diet.


Eating veggies helps prevent skin damage from sunlight

Here is a highly technical paper from 2011 in the British Journal of Dermatoloty: "CONCLUSIONS: Tomato paste containing lycopene provides protection against acute and potentially longer-term aspects of photodamage." (abstract http://www.pubmed.com/20854436) Eating tomato paste reduced UV damage to the skin, and reduced damage to skin mitochondrial DNA.

Heliocare supplement reduces sun damage

When my dermatologist squirted my skin tags, he asked if I wanted "sunblock in a pill?" (I do not take this, nor am I recommending it. I am simply illustrating a plant based product reducing UV sun damage.)

From the heliocare website:

The powerful antioxidant formula in each capsule of HELIOCARE® is naturally derived from the extract of Polypodium leucotomos (PLE), a fern native to Central and South America that has been used for centuries as a remedy for skin related conditions.

HELIOCARE’s active extract contains antioxidants, which aid in eliminating free radicals produced by sun exposure. A reduction in these potentially dangerous free radicals helps to maintain younger, more resilient skin.*

Common knowledge about dark complected skin

It is common knowledge (that is, I don't have a reference for it right now), that people with dark complections are less susceptible to sun burn. They also make less vitamin D, for the same amount of sunlight exposure. The melanin in the skin, blocks the UV in sunlight, to produce less sun damage, and to produce less vitamin D.

The New Consideration

We have seen the Pharmanex machine which shows that eating more fruits and veggies absorbs blue light in the skin.

We have seen that lycopene reduces UV damage in the skin.

We have seen a plant supplement reduce skin damage.

We have seen that skin melanin reduces skin damage and reduces vitamin D production, in people with dark complections.

Here's a question: If eating fruits and vegetables stops a portion of the UV light in the skin, thus reducing skin damage, does eating fruits and veggies also stop some of the UV before it can reach the cells to make vitamin D?

The new consideration is that since we are on a healthy diet, we might consider getting a blood test for our vitamin D level. We might have less vitamin D BECAUSE we are on a very healthy diet, since antioxidants may reduce the UV reaching the layer of skin that makes vitamin D.

My own thoughts

Carroll's daughter may have had a similar experience, where the vitamin D level was measured in the single digits, in spite of getting sunshine. Carroll's daughter developed rheumatoid arthritis, which improved but was not cured, when the vitamin D deficiency was remedied.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37421&p=406062&hilit=arthritis#p406062

Thinking about my own case history, I became severely lactose intolerant at age 32, 2 years after starting the Pritikin diet. Amazingly, to me, my lactose intolerance disappeared 29 years later, 16 months after fixing my vitamin D deficiency. Did vitamin D deficiency create my severe lactose intolerance?

Did I become vitamin D deficient because of lots of veggies on the Pritikin diet (very similar to McDougall)? I ran a great deal, from age 30 to 32, culminating in a marathon. I had pleny of sunlight for those 2 years.

At age 60, I found I had near osteoporosis, in a DEXA scan, and I found I had a blood vitamin D level of 16. Had I been strongly vitamin D deficient, for 3 decades, contributing to osteoporosis? There is no way to know. (For most of the 30 years, I also got little sunlight.) But I do know one thing. If all things are equal, it is my preference not have any vitamin deficiencies.

The point of this discussion is the possibility that we, as persons choosing to eat a healthy diet, might be especially susceptible to a vitamin D deficiency. The only way we can know, is with a blood test.

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy Hall)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby colonyofcells » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:31 pm

I don't believe there is a vitamin d deficiency among vegetable eaters or omnivores so I don't worry about vitamin d. There are now brands of mushrooms with vitamin d. With the droughts in California, I am getting lots of sun every day so I don't worry about vitamin d.
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:07 pm

Thank you for posting this!

When I tested years ago, semi-omni "health fooder" at the time and for many years, I tested low teens as I remember. Used to get at least one cold every year, followed by sinus infection and the flu once every year or two; lifetime pattern. And I was surfing at that time, several times a week though largely rubber clad, often sat on beach before or after w/ a lot of skin showing. Still quite deficient. As soon as I supplemented to mid normal range, no more respiratory infections, not one in probably 12 years at least and that with working in close contact w/ ill public as alt.health practitioner and pharmacy worker.

Also, a few years ago had DEXA done and was at the bad end of osteoporosis! I think my Z score was -3.6 or near that, big red flag at top of lab report saying see your doctor immediately. Other possible causes of course but I do suspect my previous years of low D were a contributor.
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby serenity » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:16 pm

Side Question:
I'm in the same position of having the very beginning of cataracts. The Dr. said I could have them out if I want, but it isn't necessary yet, and we'll watch them.

Yours disappeared. Was the only change you made the wrap-around sun glasses?
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi Serenity,

serenity wrote:Side Question:
I'm in the same position of having the very beginning of cataracts. The Dr. said I could have them out if I want, but it isn't necessary yet, and we'll watch them.

Yours disappeared. Was the only change you made the wrap-around sun glasses?


Thanks for asking. Best of luck to you.

I probably was lucky, also. For completeness, I increased my emphasis on fruits & veggies, also. And I lost 5 pounds, to become very lean, since I was hoping to reverse my average hardening of arteries. But the sunglasses were probably the most important. Our skin can become tan and wrinkled. What can our lens and retina do? Oh, and of course, I discovered and fixed my vitamin D deficiency. Those are all the changes I made at that time.

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby serenity » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:12 pm

Thanks. I've gotten pretty lax lately and was ticked off at myself when I saw the eye Dr. I've been tightening my compliance and, coincidentally, recently made the decision to address my long-standing D deficiency with supplements. Although I always wear sun clips outside, I think I'll try some wrap-arounds. Can't hurt. :)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:23 pm

Hi ColonyOfCells,

Say, GREAT name !! I can only aspire to be a colony of cells. :lol:

colonyofcells wrote:I don't believe there is a vitamin d deficiency among vegetable eaters or omnivores so I don't worry about vitamin d. There are now brands of mushrooms with vitamin d. With the droughts in California, I am getting lots of sun every day so I don't worry about vitamin d.


Thanks for you input. And, of course, I hope you are completely right.

I don't blame you. I had no idea I had any problems, 7 years ago. If I hadn't taken the DEXA test, I would probably still be vitamin D deficient today. At a level of 16, this is well correlated with many problems, none of which have ever improved anyone's quality of life. Perhaps the excellent lifestyle we follow, would prevent these issues. But my hunch is that our excellent lifestyle did not prevent my severe lactose intolerance, nor cure it. My feeling is, all things being equal, I'd rather not have any vitamin deficiencies. Just to be clear, I do not know that a vitamin D deficiency caused my severe lactose intolerance of 29 years. But that's a very important change that seems to line up, per my tome, and nothing else seems to line up.

Considering the mushrooms with vitamin D. I was taking 200 IU supplement, for 2 years prior to having my level tested at 16. Plus lots of sun, probably too much sun. Food sources of D just are not enough, if sunlight is not doing much for you.

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby dteresa » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:27 pm

Hi, EG, are you lost? Nice to see you here.

Pam Popper has several videos on vitamin D. In one she says that D is a marker for certain illnesses, not necessarily the cause. One group of diabetics with very low vitamin D levels were studied and when they got their blood sugar under control the D levels went up. She says testing is not standardized and can vary from lab to lab. Elsewhere I have read that taking supplements will certainly raise D levels but will do nothing to improve some conditions. Obviously some of you have found otherwise. Geoffrey, was taking supplements the cause of your no long suffering those seasonal ills or was it that you adhered strictly to a plant diet?

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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:19 pm

Hi Dteresa,

Thanks for your message. 8)

Yes! I have been lost. I have been squandering my youth in front of computers at work. :duh:

That was very interesting about the diabetics vitamin D levels increasing, when they brought their glucose into control.

Recall that we have been fortifying milk for many decades, and this does prevent rickets.

It is my belief that if someone is deficient in vitamin D, supplements are beneficial. Otherwise not, and perhaps harmful depending on the resulting blood level.

Here is one example of supplements helped prevent hip fractures.
Bischoff-Ferrari HA et al. A pooled analysis of vitamin D dose requirements for fracture prevention. N Engl J Med 2012 Jul 5; 367:40. (http://dx.doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa1109617)
"CONCLUSIONS
High-dose vitamin D supplementation (≥800 IU daily) was somewhat favorable in the prevention of hip fracture and any nonvertebral fracture in persons 65 years of age or older."

Got to get to bed...

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby f1jim » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:35 am

Nice to see you back here EG. You are to be commended for holding the fort at the Ornish/Fuhrman WebMD site. You post on a subject that comes up fairly often around here. Since most everyone seems to test low on the typical vitamin D test it is a popular subject to hash over.
As Didi mentions there does seem to be a lot of the egg/chicken debate regarding low vitamin D. Does various issues stem from low vitamin D levels or is it the other way around? Vitamin D levels drop with certain issues. There have been tests regarding obesity and vitamin D levels that have been intriguing. It appears we are at the infancy of our knowledge on this subject. I have heard several speakers on the topic, a few that seem rather disparaging of the current test and many that place no confidence in the numbers defined as normal. My guess is it will take another 25 years before we really know something definitive about the subject.
I do hope you will be a regular visitor on this site, your comments are always intriguing. I hope you will enjoy the activity levels here at the McDougall website. We have a very active community here.
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:29 am

I was taking 200 IU supplement, for 2 years prior to having my level tested at 16. Plus lots of sun, probably too much sun. Food sources of D just are not enough, if sunlight is not doing much for you.
I was taking 2000 i.u./day and had been for several years when I tested in low teens! Had read about possible D deficiency issues years prior and thought that was plenty to take, just never tested.

It is possible that there is not a general problem w/ deficient D and that the "normal" range is set way too high, but that does fly in the face of a very large body of research and demographic correlations as well as a lot of clinical observation. Sometimes the reality is just not the way we might wish it to be...
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby ETeSelle » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:33 am

You might be interested in Dr. McDougall's take on the "broken bone industry," fueled by the (questionable) DEXA test results.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl ... uosteo.htm
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Trust me on this: One day you'll wake up and realize that it no longer feels like "being strict." It just feels GOOD. :)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:36 pm

f1jim wrote:Nice to see you back here EG. You are to be commended for holding the fort at the Ornish/Fuhrman WebMD site. You post on a subject that comes up fairly often around here. Since most everyone seems to test low on the typical vitamin D test it is a popular subject to hash over.
As Didi mentions there does seem to be a lot of the egg/chicken debate regarding low vitamin D. Does various issues stem from low vitamin D levels or is it the other way around? Vitamin D levels drop with certain issues. There have been tests regarding obesity and vitamin D levels that have been intriguing. It appears we are at the infancy of our knowledge on this subject. I have heard several speakers on the topic, a few that seem rather disparaging of the current test and many that place no confidence in the numbers defined as normal. My guess is it will take another 25 years before we really know something definitive about the subject.
I do hope you will be a regular visitor on this site, your comments are always intriguing. I hope you will enjoy the activity levels here at the McDougall website. We have a very active community here.
f1jim


Hi F1jim,

Thanks very much for extending such a warm welcome. You are very kind. We go back a while!! You do a great job fostering this community, which indeed, is very knowledgeable, active and astute!! 8)

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:38 pm

Hi Geoffrey,

Great to "see" you. You are always very informative and thoughtful. Thanks for adding your important experience to this thread!

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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Re: A possibly new consideration about Vitamin D

Postby EngineerGuy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:56 pm

Hi folks,

Thanks very much for excellent comments and discussion, all quite valid.

Geoffrey and I are not living in fear of a fracture, but, all things being equal, why not have bone density normal for a man? (Our bone density is well below normal, based on women's average bone density of our age, not men's bone density.) Without the D deficiency, we probably would have. It's too late for Geoffrey and myself to ever have a normal bone density. But we can keep what we have, and perhaps gradually improve. The trabecular bone can strengthen plenty, and have little affect on the DEXA.

Recall that milk has been fortified with D since the 1930's. It does prevent rickets.

Concerning discussion about chicken/egg,

One observation, if I may. Consider the diabetics with high glucose being vitamin D deficient, and the D level increases when the glucose is brought under control. Clearly, controlling the glucose is the way to go. But suppose the person does not achieve glucose control, for whatever reason. In this case, might the diabetic benefit from increasing his vitamin D blood level to normal, with a supplement? Maybe. Maybe not. Do we know? Why would we assume he would not benefit?

For people with low blood levels of vitamin D, does anyone have clear evidence that vitamin D supplements are of no value?

We all know that excess vitamin D is highly toxic. Calcium can deposit where it does not belong, and many problems.

Has anyone any information that a vitamin D supplement used to achieve a normal blood level, has any potential for harm? (Recall that Geoffrey and my blood levels were deficient by anyone's yardstick.)

One study showed that it is probably true, that in Northern US, 1100 IU of D reduced the cancer rate. The study is being repeated with a larger population, to provide a more definitive answer.

So, the old risk vs benefit analysis.

For bone health, there is no question that deficient is bad, and supplements help, even reducing fracture risk. (Of course, our healthy lifestyle and exercise, are critical also. Geoffrey and my experience suggest that even our lifestyle cannot overcome a strong D deficiency, for losing bone density.) Many other maladies correlate with low blood levels of D.

We all do not like the idea of taking supplements. Generally, they are over rated. But we do take B12. We do that, because, based on the merits of B12, we need the supplement, on a healthy vegan diet.

There is no risk, nor expense, to cure a vitamin D deficiency. What is the risk of remaining deficient?

Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
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