Debunking Michael Greger

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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby Steelhead » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:55 am

I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I suppose this is why in Forks Over Knives reference is made to a "plant-strong" diet with the admonition that animal protein should be less than 5% of the calories in one's daily diet. The junk-food vegan political diatribe has failed to capture the imagination of the West, and has probably done more harm than good in turning off people to eat all they want (while getting lots of variety) of any whole, unrefined plant-based food.

Obviously, eating an oz of nuts along with starches, fruits, vegetables, and legumes is not going to do any harm to the human body; it's nuts to go nuts over nuts. But the AJ article just pointed out that if you want to lose more weight then cut out some calories such as nuts -- now that isn't nuts or nutty advice; makes sense.

As for Dr. Greger, he's just presenting the studies that on a macro level show why eating a whole, unrefined plant-based food diet without fixating on any one particular plant is an advantageous life-style.

Sometimes advocacy can become extreme. I recall reading a response to a poster about whether raw cacao powder was okay to eat, and the shoot-from-the-hip response was that it should be avoided because in pertinent part it was full of saturated fat. What? We all know that cacao powder has no fat (okay, maybe in irrelevant amount), and so it should be intuitive and obvious that eating a no-fat plant food is just fine -- and it "could" have some positive benefits synergistically along with all the other plants we eat. But why was the question dismissed with an obviously wrong answer? I think Jeff just didn't read it carefully and thought the question was regarding "raw cacao nibs" -- then his answer made sense. But the poster had to be shaking her head in disbelief. Still, Jeff's points on average are excellent as are Dr. Greger's.

Oh, some of the witty posts had me laughing and loving the poster's intellect.

I too 20 years ago would never have believed that I would become a strict whole, unrefined plant-based eater. My oldest daughter still can't believe it; but I was always interested in nutrition, and when a friend recommended that I read The China Study I thought it made sense -- and anecdotally my health has improved dramatically since the change (my arthritis in my hands disappeared, my senior moments are seldom, my cholesterol dropped to 118 (three months ago; next week I'll have it checked again); etc.).

If we can get everyone to cut back, way back, on the animal protein and junk food, processed oils, then the health benefits will be dramatic compared to the present situation we find in the West. "We have met the enemy, and it is us." Nevertheless, an extreme wing is always necessary to keep pulling us in the right direction -- so all you "fanatics" keep it up!! You are noticed and appreciated.

In health.
No matter what genes we inherit, changes in diet can affect DNA expression at a genetic level." Michael Greger M.D.

Certificate in Plant-Based Nutrition - eCornell & T. Colin Campbell Foundation.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby patty » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:52 pm

I never had a problem with Dr. Greger. I was impressed he would take the time and post on the forum. I watched some of his presentations and thought he had a lot to say, until I saw this:

Dr. Fuhrman: Do you think some of the present vegan authors seem to hide from any science that may weaken their prior (sub-optimal) pronouncements on nutrition?

Dr. Greger: Yes, I have learned it's always best to seek out the primary sources to review them rather than rely on expert opinion. Too often we hear outdated information that is ego-based and supporting old theories that have been proposed. These include extremely low fat vegan diets, without nuts and seeds, or centering one's diet around white potatoes or white rice. This is just not the best science-based advice.


I don't ever remember Dr. Greger promoting his videos on Dr. Fuhrman's Members Discussion forum. Is it a case of Milgram's blind obligation to authority, where Dr. Greger can trash Dr. McDougall in Dr. Fuhrman's Public forum and turn around to promote himself on Dr. McDougall's Members Discussion forum? And we are being thought as nutty not to see the humor in it? Too funny! i am so grateful I escaped education.

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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby alias » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:36 pm

I love your Churchill quote, Steelhead.

I just finished watching the movie, The Gathering Storm. It's excellent !
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby vgpedlr » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:53 pm

How many "vowel movements" a day for optimal health?
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby patty » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:58 am

vgpedlr wrote:How many "vowel movements" a day for optimal health?

Too Funny!!! I always forget the important component of the fractal feedback loop is transcending the matching junk in communication is the transformation of allurement of our matching communion of our whole nature. No one loves the smell of s--- and it is a good thing because we would have it everywhere, on the table, in our hair but because no one loves the smell of it, it is put in a very special place where we don't dig it up. That is till something or someone else does then we remember we are never upset for the reason we think we are.

I love in "Digestion Tune-Up" Dr. McDougall shares this story:
As a senior medical student in the autumn of 1971, I sat in on a usual noontime hospital conference that would turn out to be a life-changing experience for me. I remember only one slide shown by visiting lecturer Dr. Denis Burkitt, the physician who discovered the immune system cancer named after him-Burkitt's Lymphoma. On one side of the slide was pictured a large hospital building with a small bowel movement next to it. In the adjacent frame was a small hospital beside a large bowel movement. He said, "America is a constipated nation ... If you pass small stools, you have to have large hospitals." And according to Dr. Burkitt, the key to big bowel movements is a diet high in fiber. This was the first doctor who ever told me that diet and health were directly related-that the foods we consume can and do cause the majority of our most common chronic diseases.


These virtual reality communities I find are very healing as again we are never upset for the reason we think we are. And for myself it is always a authority issue and I am so grateful Dr. McDougall has identified the biological metabolic dollar fat and oil. I am powerless over communication and the payoff is the smaller hospital:)

I just like to say Mahalo to everyone who makes up Dr. McDougall's virtual reality community. They say when we take care of our past we plant gold in our back yard. We are truly blessed for Dr. McDougall. In AA they say no one every shoots off their foot. When time disappears, the mind does too. Peace!

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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:25 am

patty wrote:
vgpedlr wrote:How many "vowel movements" a day for optimal health?

Too Funny!!! I always forget the important component of the fractal feedback loop is transcending the matching junk in communication is the transformation of allurement of our matching communion of our whole nature. No one loves the smell of s--- and it is a good thing because we would have it everywhere, on the table, in our hair but because no one loves the smell it, it is put in a very special place where we don't dig it up. That is till something or someone else does then we remember we are never upset for the reason we think we are.

I love in "Digestion Tune-Up" Dr. McDougall shares this story:
As a senior medical student in the autumn of 1971, I sat in on a usual noontime hospital conference that would turn out to be a life-changing experience for me. I remember only one slide shown by visiting lecturer Dr. Denis Burkitt, the physician who discovered the immune system cancer named after him-Burkitt's Lymphoma. On one side of the slide was pictured a large hospital building with a small bowel movement next to it. In the adjacentframe was a small hospital beside a large bowel movement. He said, "America is a constipated nation ... If you pass small stools, you have to have large hospitals." And according to Dr. Burkitt, the key to big bowel movements is a diet high in fiber. This was the first doctor who ever told me that diet and health were directly related-that the foods we consume can and do cause the majority of our most common chronic diseases.
These virtual reality communities I find are very healing as we are never upset for the reason we think we are. And for myself it is always a authority issue and I am so grateful Dr. McDougall has identified the biological metabolic dollar fat and oil. I am powerless over communication and the payoff is the smaller hospital:)

I just like to say Mahalo to everyone who makes up this Dr. McDougall's virtual reality community. We are truly blessed. In AA they say no one every shoots off their foot. When time disappears, the mind does too. Peace!

Aloha, patty


I don't know much about fractalizationisificationalism, but "authority issues" is my middle name. :lol:

According to my kitchen clock, it was 1:42 for three days. I got tired of being stuck there waiting for time to move, so this morning I gave it a new battery. I guess sometimes ya just gotta take charge. Give charge? Recharge? Something.

8)
You don't have to wait to be happy.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby Vegan Hunter » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:56 am

I always forget the important component of the fractal feedback loop is transcending the matching junk in communication is the transformation of allurement of our matching communion of our whole nature.


I don't mind admitting you completely lost me here.......
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those that are good at math, and those that aren't.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby patty » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:01 am

AlwaysAgnes wrote:I don't know much about fractalizationisificationalism, but "authority issues" is my middle name. :lol:

According to my kitchen clock, it was 1:42 for three days. I got tired of being stuck there waiting for time to move, so this morning I gave it a new battery. I guess sometimes ya just gotta take charge. Give charge? Recharge? Something.

8)


I think they say we are a universe of charged particles:) Energy never begins or ceases. That is what so great about Jeff Novick's _Calorie Density_ as he spotlights the subconscious... how we eat the same amount of weight of food daily... it just how it is packed in creates the relationship of the of the unconscious and the conscious that comes into sync where the universal kitchen clock resides in the immediacy.

Have a wonderful day (((foreveralwaysAgness)))

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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby patty » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:09 am

Vegan Hunter wrote:
I always forget the important component of the fractal feedback loop is transcending the matching junk in communication is the transformation of allurement of our matching communion of our whole nature.


I don't mind admitting you completely lost me here.......


I am sure you know of the story of the ten blind men and the elephant. The component of the feedback loop each of the ten blind men, makes up the whole, where the elephant can see himself/herself. Today they believe we live in a fractal universe. Hope that helps.

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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:12 am

patty wrote:
AlwaysAgnes wrote:I don't know much about fractalizationisificationalism, but "authority issues" is my middle name. :lol:

According to my kitchen clock, it was 1:42 for three days. I got tired of being stuck there waiting for time to move, so this morning I gave it a new battery. I guess sometimes ya just gotta take charge. Give charge? Recharge? Something.

8)


I think they say we are a universe of charged particles:) Energy never begins or ceases. That is what so great about Jeff Novick's _Calorie Density_ as he spotlights the subconscious... how we eat the same amount of weight of food daily... it just how it is packed in creates the relationship of the of the unconscious and the conscious that comes into sync where the universal kitchen clock resides in the immediacy.

Have a wonderful day (((foreveralwaysAgness)))

Aloha, patty



Will do, but is there really any other kind o' day? (((patty)))
You don't have to wait to be happy.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:17 am

patty wrote:
Vegan Hunter wrote:
I always forget the important component of the fractal feedback loop is transcending the matching junk in communication is the transformation of allurement of our matching communion of our whole nature.


I don't mind admitting you completely lost me here.......


I am sure you know of the story of the ten blind men and the elephant. The component of the feedback loop each of the ten blind men, makes up the whole, where the elephant can see himself/herself. Today they believe we live in a fractal universe. Hope that helps.

Aloha, patty



In other words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axb2sHpGwHQ

:mrgreen:
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby patty » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:37 am

I love this story from Deena Metzger, about the coming together with the Council of Elephants. Hope you enjoy:)
http://www.deenametzger.com/

I am off to work, oops I mean play! Aloha patty
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby Vegan Hunter » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:13 am

patty wrote:I love this story from Deena Metzger, about the coming together with the Council of Elephants. Hope you enjoy:)
http://www.deenametzger.com/

I am off to work, oops I mean play! Aloha patty



"They are a holocausted people"..... So tragic, yet powerful.

I also agree with the concept that the world can only begin to heal itself when we decide to become one with nature again. How do we do that? I can't help but to think we are beyond turning back. We have such a rabid, swelling need to consume, and it would appear as a country develops they follow our model of consumption.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:36 am

We all know that cacao powder has no fat (okay, maybe in irrelevant amount), and so it should be intuitive and obvious that eating a no-fat plant food is just fine -- and it "could" have some positive benefits synergistically along with all the other plants we eat. But why was the question dismissed with an obviously wrong answer?

Cacao nibs or powder (ground nibs) have 2.5 grams fat/ounce, of which 1.5 grams is saturated. From label
http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-navitas-naturals-organic-raw-cacao-i132165
Unsweetened cocoa powder (from CRONoMeter) contains 3.9 grams fat of which 2.3 are saturated. The Wonderslim cocoa that Mary McD (and others) uses contains zero fat of any kind.
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Re: Debunking Michael Greger

Postby frozenveg » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:05 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:
We all know that cacao powder has no fat (okay, maybe in irrelevant amount), and so it should be intuitive and obvious that eating a no-fat plant food is just fine -- and it "could" have some positive benefits synergistically along with all the other plants we eat. But why was the question dismissed with an obviously wrong answer?

Cacao nibs or powder (ground nibs) have 2.5 grams fat/ounce, of which 1.5 grams is saturated. From label
http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-navitas-naturals-organic-raw-cacao-i132165
Unsweetened cocoa powder (from CRONoMeter) contains 3.9 grams fat of which 2.3 are saturated. The Wonderslim cocoa that Mary McD (and others) uses contains zero fat of any kind.

Agreed. here's another nutrition link, showing cocoa powder as 50% fat 196 calories, 99 of which are fat):
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5471/2

So let's not distribute misinformation.
Last edited by frozenveg on Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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