ASW Weekend Update

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Chumly » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 am

I attended one of his week-long getaways a couple of years ago. He can be very blunt. I don't think he's purposefully being mean, it's just the way he delivers his point.

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Lani Muelrath » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:38 am

Chumly wrote:I attended one of his week-long getaways a couple of years ago. He can be very blunt. I don't think he's purposefully being mean, it's just the way he delivers his point.

Michael


You make a good point Michael, as different approaches create positive impact and outcome for different people. As a coach, I think about this a lot in terms of finding the best avenue for change when helping people through this metamorphosis. It's come up before at the ASW - even Dr. Diehl and Dr. McDougall spoke to it at the Sept. 2010 event. Dr. Diehl clearly said to encourage, cajole, invite, and Dr. McDougall said "I just get in their face". Between these 2, Dr. McDougall is the clear hard-driver and we all can agree that is one of the qualities that we appreciate about his work.

Dr. Fuhrman's personality and demeanor can seem more stringent as well. I spoke to Scott after the commentary by Dr. Fuhrman. In his question, Scott was speaking to the challenges of a busy schedule and convenience of addressing proper diet, and that though he'd lost 100 lbs, he still is being challenged at getting it all to work and Dr. Fuhrman said, if memory serves correct, "Yes, I can see you are having a problem with that". In speaking with Scott I asked him about how that was for him, and how our hearts went out to him at that moment, he said that he sees "Dr. Fuhrman. as the diet nazi and Dr. McDougall as the diet father".

There's room for both manners of delivery as some people do respond well to military approach and others to the fatherly. Actually, I am very curious as to how research would play out the success rate of these avenues of delivery. I don't know how you'd ever test it, as you'd also need to address personality profiles and all kind of other variables.

Readers, what do you think? Which approach works best with you, and look beyond the immediate moment to long term - nazi or father?

Lani
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Gramma Jackie » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:57 am

Lani Muelrath wrote:
Chumly wrote:I attended one of his week-long getaways a couple of years ago. He can be very blunt. I don't think he's purposefully being mean, it's just the way he delivers his point.

Michael


You make a good point Michael, as different approaches create positive impact and outcome for different people. As a coach, I think about this a lot in terms of finding the best avenue for change when helping people through this metamorphosis. It's come up before at the ASW - even Dr. Diehl and Dr. McDougall spoke to it at the Sept. 2010 event. Dr. Diehl clearly said to encourage, cajole, invite, and Dr. McDougall said "I just get in their face". Between these 2, Dr. McDougall is the clear hard-driver and we all can agree that is one of the qualities that we appreciate about his work.

Dr. Fuhrman's personality and demeanor can seem more stringent as well. I spoke to Scott after the commentary by Dr. Fuhrman. In his question, Scott was speaking to the challenges of a busy schedule and convenience of addressing proper diet, and that though he'd lost 100 lbs, he still is being challenged at getting it all to work and Dr. Fuhrman said, if memory serves correct, "Yes, I can see you are having a problem with that". In speaking with Scott I asked him about how that was for him, and how our hearts went out to him at that moment, he said that he sees "Dr. Fuhrman. as the diet nazi and Dr. McDougall as the diet father".

There's room for both manners of delivery as some people do respond well to military approach and others to the fatherly. Actually, I am very curious as to how research would play out the success rate of these avenues of delivery. I don't know how you'd ever test it, as you'd also need to address personality profiles and all kind of other variables.

Readers, what do you think? Which approach works best with you, and look beyond the immediate moment to long term - nazi or father?

Lani


Lani,

I am a firm believer that "there is a time and a place for everything." I don't think that a public forum, be it a message board or a conference room filled with people is the place to publicly say things that would embarrass or intimidate anyone. I think a better way to go for that type of frank talk is to ask for the person to meet with him after the talk. Or in the case of a message board send a PM. My father-in-law was a Southern preacher. He could preach some "fire and brimstone" sermons, but he was patient, loving and kind when he talked to people individually. If he had used mockery to persuade people he would not have lasted 45 years in the ministry. I know Dr. McDougall can be blunt, but he seems to save his firepower for establishment medical community, drug companies, etc. rather than talking that way to people who are at least trying to eat healthy.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby chewy » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:02 am

did dr mcdougall say that ANY ground flaxseed was necessary to add to his diet at all or absolutely no need-just plenty of starches with the addition of fruit and vegetables?
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby patty » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:40 am

That is too bad, about the remark of someone's embodiment. Sensitivity can be a character defect (a social excuse to use) when addicted to SAD. It is why our culture is in the state of a endless cycle of self abuse, just as a example: I love how Dr. McDougall asks what would happen if we gave kittens human milk? Adrienne suggested a book "Whitewash: The Disturbing Truth About Cow's Milk", which looks like a excellent read. I believe it was Dr. Barnard has shared the cow's milk has a light narcotic where the calf doesn't stray to far away. We live in a drugged culture.

What is exciting is the person was in a room where the support was abundant (and through satiety of starch:) Mahalo to Dr. McDougall) for him/her to be receptive to make a conscious/body social shift to his/her highest good. As I am sure the intent of Dr. Fuhrman was to motivate that shift. Dr. Fuhrman clearly states SAD is a body, mind and social addiction. Discomfort can work to the reality of being authentic to the satiety of Starch, a awakening we are all open to experience.

In viewing Dr. Fuhrman's Ask the doctor forum I have witnessed over and over a caring person who wants to eradicate the disease that is embedded in our culture.. he is starch centered no matter how it looks:) Dr. Fuhrman shares self care is the best care. And that is possible with a perspective that goes beyond what is perceived.

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby LoriLynn » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:56 am

I really enjoyed attending the ASW this past weekend. Even though I had some great conversations with attendees around the dinner table, I tended to lay low and not seek anyone out. This is my first event and it was well worth the price of admission. I brought my sister and I don't think there could have been anything I could have done to make a better impression upon her. She had been struggling and was resorting to eating out rather than cooking at home. We both left renewed and confident and ready to make some changes, not big ones, just some fine-tuning with the program.

The presenters were so good that I will have to go out and buy the dvd so my husband and others may hear the excellent talks and perpectives. I think Dr. Klaper's presentation was the most powerful for me, but Melanie Joy's was a close second. There wasn't a single one that I wished I would have skipped out on to do something different.

Dr. McDougall put out the word for speaker suggestions for the next ASW. I was thinking of suggesting Jared Diamond, author of "Guns, Germs and Steel". Even though his book is a bit old (1997), the information is like another piece in the puzzle that explains how we developed and why we are the way we are. His premise is that the domestication of plants, particularly grains and starches, is what fueled the development of advanced civilization and that animal husbandry was the development that created deadly diseases that killed millions at a time. He carefully lays out the explanation in his book.

I ate a LOT of food this weekend and I was really fearful of gaining when I got home. To top it off, I ate out yesterday and had vegan birthday cake last night (as it's my birthday today). When I got on the scale, I found out that I was down 4 pounds after an 8+ week plateau. If I can lose 4 pounds in one ASW, I just need to attend 25 more to reach my goal!
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Lani Muelrath » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:11 pm

chewy wrote:did dr mcdougall say that ANY ground flaxseed was necessary to add to his diet at all or absolutely no need-just plenty of starches with the addition of fruit and vegetables?


I've never heard Dr. McDougall say that it was necessary to add flaxseed to the diet. We actually do not "need" any particular individual food, what we need is nutrients, and omega 3's are one of those essential nutrients, meaning we need to consume them.

Most plant foods contain some essential fats. This includes fruits, veggies, starchy vegetables, intact whole grains and legumes, though with the advent of GMO omega 3's are in danger of being engineered out as they add to the perishability of foods. And there are certain plant foods are richer sources of omega 3 than others, including flax seed and walnuts.

To find out if your diet is providing enough essential omega 3's, or any nutrient, you could run it through an analyzer such as cron-o-meter and see how it measures up.

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Lani Muelrath » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:15 pm

Gramma Jackie wrote:
Lani Muelrath wrote:
Chumly wrote:I attended one of his week-long getaways a couple of years ago. He can be very blunt. I don't think he's purposefully being mean, it's just the way he delivers his point.

Michael


You make a good point Michael, as different approaches create positive impact and outcome for different people. As a coach, I think about this a lot in terms of finding the best avenue for change when helping people through this metamorphosis. It's come up before at the ASW - even Dr. Diehl and Dr. McDougall spoke to it at the Sept. 2010 event. Dr. Diehl clearly said to encourage, cajole, invite, and Dr. McDougall said "I just get in their face". Between these 2, Dr. McDougall is the clear hard-driver and we all can agree that is one of the qualities that we appreciate about his work.

Dr. Fuhrman's personality and demeanor can seem more stringent as well. I spoke to Scott after the commentary by Dr. Fuhrman. In his question, Scott was speaking to the challenges of a busy schedule and convenience of addressing proper diet, and that though he'd lost 100 lbs, he still is being challenged at getting it all to work and Dr. Fuhrman said, if memory serves correct, "Yes, I can see you are having a problem with that". In speaking with Scott I asked him about how that was for him, and how our hearts went out to him at that moment, he said that he sees "Dr. Fuhrman. as the diet nazi and Dr. McDougall as the diet father".

There's room for both manners of delivery as some people do respond well to military approach and others to the fatherly. Actually, I am very curious as to how research would play out the success rate of these avenues of delivery. I don't know how you'd ever test it, as you'd also need to address personality profiles and all kind of other variables.

Readers, what do you think? Which approach works best with you, and look beyond the immediate moment to long term - nazi or father?

Lani


Lani,

I am a firm believer that "there is a time and a place for everything." I don't think that a public forum, be it a message board or a conference room filled with people is the place to publicly say things that would embarrass or intimidate anyone. I think a better way to go for that type of frank talk is to ask for the person to meet with him after the talk. Or in the case of a message board send a PM. My father-in-law was a Southern preacher. He could preach some "fire and brimstone" sermons, but he was patient, loving and kind when he talked to people individually. If he had used mockery to persuade people he would not have lasted 45 years in the ministry. I know Dr. McDougall can be blunt, but he seems to save his firepower for establishment medical community, drug companies, etc. rather than talking that way to people who are at least trying to eat healthy.


Thanks GrammaJ for your observations!

Lani
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Jack19 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:44 pm

[quote="Lani MuelrathDr. McDougall said "I just get in their face". Lani[/quote]

That is quite simply an OUTRAGEOUS slur on Dr McDougall right there. I am pretty sure that he was referring to the medical ESTABLISHMENT. That is, the doctors, the hospitals, the legislators, the special interests and the medical reps who amongst others, all refuse to counter the idea that diet will reverse most, if not all cases of degenerative disease. He was NOT referring to ordinary people who are simply trying to figure out who is to be believed when it comes to weight loss.

And much as I am not a fan of Dr Fuhrman, I do not believe he deserves to be labelled a Nazi. A jack ass maybe for apparently singling out an overweight individual in front of an entire group of people. A dreadfully misguided individual perhaps, for suggesting that vegetables should be the main source of saity at just about every meal -apparently even breakfast. And maybe a penny pinching miser for charging the rediculous sums of money he gets away with for consultations on the phone, and even stooping so low as to actually charge for his equivalent of this board. But no, not a Nazi.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Lani Muelrath » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:59 pm

Jack19, thus the problem of communicating nuance at an event in forum setting. No slur of course. Perhaps these are some of those 'had to be there' moments.

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Adrienne » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:09 pm

I was going to type up the exchange but Jim is correct that you really need to all of see it. I just thought the whole thing was in bad taste and I am glad John Mackey correctly pointed out that the comment was inappropriate. Dr F did apologize but did so while laughing. It seemed disingenuous.

To be fair to Dr F, when Scott then informed everyone of his 100 pound weight loss so far (which was greeted with applause) Dr F did reply with "Really, wow. Keep going in the right direction." That seemed sincere. Then he went on about how "that type of attitude is a person looking for excuses" and how traveling is just another excuse for people wishing to further their addictions which IMO kind of veered from the original question which was eating McD vs Dr F while on the road.

(Dr F, when he got around to answering the original question, said he goes straight to whole foods and prepares food for himself while traveling, demonstrating that Scott was correct in saying that its easier to eat McD-style on the road.)

Jim, Scott didn't ask Dr F for his opinion on his weight; he asked a general, practical question about how to eat when traveling, and since it was a debate, to compare the accessibility of starches in restaurants vs the foods Dr F recommends. He didn't ask to be interrupted with a snarky remark about his personal appearance!

I can't imagine Dr McD going to a Fuhrman event and speaking to any of the audience members that way.

On a side note, I thought Scott handled himself really well in that situation and I am rooting for him to become a future star mcdougaller!!!
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby f1jim » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:28 pm

This goes beyond this weekend event. This is a topic that will come up as long as forums like this one are around. As long as there is a judgement call about how to approach a question about diet and lifestyle. Every doctor that teaches on diet and lifestyle will have people come to them that need motivation, a shoulder to cry on, and, at times, a rude awakening about their issues. Judgement calls on what a particular person needs at any given moment are made and the doctor lives with that decision. If it's "tough love" that is delivered sometimes feelings will be hurt. Some are better at sizing up what to advise, others not so much. It's no different than the personalities here on the forum. If you have been here awhile you learn who are the soft and cuddly deliverers of help and who are the cut to the chase members. Compounding this issue is many of the people who have a long term weight problem also have some psychological issues as large as their weight problem. Frustration, guilt, feelings of victimization, all are enough to trigger a sense of anger at a response. Sometimes that anger is the persons defense against the changes they know they need to make.
The tools a doctor uses to shake a person from their diet or lifestyle rut will either drive them away or strike a chord. The doctor will not always make the right call on that issue even if their advice is on the money. It's up to us when we get advice from doctors, health practitioners, investment professionals, personal trainers, whatever, to do our best to separate the advice from the perceived personal attack. These people have little reason to be demeaning anyone, especially potential customers, and clients. All the people I have met in this field tend to be pretty down to earth, and that includes Dr. Fuhrman. I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, rather than assume he was out of line. I hope others give Dr. McDougall the same leeway. Given his blunt, straightforward approach, I tend to side with him, rather than assume he has just insulted anyone. I think that situation is very rare and tends to reside in the heads of those expecting that outcome. Sometimes life is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If we expect the world to be supportive that's what we find. If we expect the world to grind us down we find that too. Perhaps instead of asking Dr. Fuhrman, McDougall, or any others to change perhaps the change should come from within. They always say...It's not what someone says to us, it's how we react that matters. I've had the fortunate twists of life that enables me to meet most of our nutritional gurus and even more close to home, the people like Dr. McDougall, Jeff Novick, etc. They have all in the last few years have had people that insisted they had been rude or condescending to them. To know these professionals is to make you wonder how anyone could make such an assertion. Knowing many of them personally gives me confidence that something else is at play. Some piece of the puzzle is missing. I find it easier to give them the benefit of the doubt and move on with my own issues. It's much more productive than to waste time on that which will not move me forward.
Perhaps we all do need to get the tape in our head and watch it over and over much like the Zapruder film of the JFK shooting...over and over. I tend to think it has already been magnified well out of proportion to it's importance at the event. I too was pleased how all handled the issue, especially Scott. I am sure he is particularly sensitive to his own weight issues as they are long standing ones.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby LauraA » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:29 pm

Hi all - I agree with Adrienne and Gramma Jackie. Scott only mentioned his weight loss after Dr Fuhrman's remark. Not only was it a group setting with a video audience, it was a setting to learn about becoming healthier and leaner. Dr Fuhrman's remarks could serve to keep those in need of help from asking questions, or even from attending future events. What good would it to to only take questions from those who are already totally successful? Also, in Dr F's answer, he seems to imply that when traveling, you need access, in your hotel room, to a fridge and a microwave. Not everyone can afford this. In a private discussion with your Dr, it is certainly fine for the Dr to be blunt, if he/she feels that would be helpful. I also noticed that at one point in his remarks, Dr Mc mentioned seeing so many familiar faces, and seeing such improvement in looks and health of many that he saw. Dr Fuhrman made another general remark about many in the audience being overweight. Again, they are probably there to get help with losing weight. He as no clue if they just lost 100 pounds or lost and regained and now need help. I did appreciate some of his comments, and am adding salads to my meals. He is a good speaker, and I almost wondered if Dr McDougall denied him a question time after his later talk all because of that rudeness! Take care, LauraA
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby LauraA » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:38 pm

Jim, I didn't see your last reply before I posted my reply. I certainly don't disagree with what you are saying, especially in a one on one exchange, or if Scott had said, "do I still need to lose?" or something like that. I just know that we want all who attend the weekends to feel welcome and accepted - even if they are overweight and have a question! Take care, LauraA
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Gramma Jackie » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:42 pm

LauraA wrote: I just know that we want all who attend the weekends to feel welcome and accepted - even if they are overweight and have a question! Take care, LauraA


and respected.
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