I am so cold!

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JeffN » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:58 am

bunsofaluminum wrote:.but calorie restriction also slows down the metabolism, so....


Insulation is an issue. It is one of the functions of body fat, so having less means less insulation.

In regard to the discussion here, since few if any are practicing true CR, it only slows as an absolute number but not as a relative number in relation to body mass, which is normal for anyone who has lost and/or is losing weight. There is less of you so you burn less.

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Re: I am so cold!

Postby bunsofaluminum » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:05 am

JeffN wrote:
bunsofaluminum wrote:.but calorie restriction also slows down the metabolism, so....


Insulation is an issue. It is one of the functions of body fat, so having less means less insulation.

In regard to the discussion here, since few if any are practicing true CR, it only slows as an absolute number but not as a relative number in relation to body mass, which is normal for anyone who has lost and/or is losing weight. There is less of you so you burn less.

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Okay, it makes sense in theory, but in my case, when I was my heaviest (over 300 lbs) and most thickly insulated, I was cold all the time. there is less of me now, but I am not colder than I was when I was morbidly obese. Possibly less-so (but still cold a lot) but I also move around more just because I can, and I have the energy.

And I did eat a lot of veggies when I was fat, just to answer someone's post. Lots of broccoli, on a daily basis (my fave veg :)) even when I was not McDougalling, I was eating whole foods, and lots of veggies. Quite a lot of fat, too. so my thyroid issues may or may not have been affected by cruciferous veggies...but in my case, insulation didn't keep me from being cold, and having less insulation hasn't made me colder. Metabolism is my issue, for sure.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JeffN » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:38 am

bunsofaluminum wrote:Okay, it makes sense in theory, but in my case, when I was my heaviest (over 300 lbs) and most thickly insulated,Metabolism is my issue, for sure.


I did not say it was not your metabolism, which of course, it may be. And, if so, it may be related to thyroid, which can happen at any weight. Thyroid would result in the feelings of cold no matter how much extra weight or insulation someone has. There are also other medical issues that cause the feeling of cold (ie, Raynaud's)

My point is simple, it is not calories when the amount of calories are adequate to maintain and/or achieve a healthy body weight.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JeffN » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:44 pm

JC73 wrote:Willett is about as mainstream an authority in the science of nutrition as you can get.


But not always accurate. His push of olive oil, the MED diet and the GI have all been shown to be flawed, even by some of his own studies.

However, while the evidence pointing to this exact diet is limited to the studies done on this exact diet, the overwhelming body of evidence from the WHO, FAO, IOM, NAS, NIH, AICR, etc etc, points to this.


From...

Human Vitamin and Mineral Requirements
Report of a joint FAO/WHO expert consultation
Bangkok, Thailand
WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION
FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
Rome, 2002

Quoting...

"Populations should consume nutritionally adequate and varied diets, based primarily on foods of plant origin with small amounts of added flesh foods. Households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses or legumes, and minimally processed starchy staple foods. The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent. A predominantly plant-based diet has a low energy density, which may protect against obesity."

"Although two-thirds of the world’s population depends on cereal or tuber-based diets, the other one-third consumes significant amounts of animal food products. The latter group places an undue demand on land, water, and other resources required for intensive food production, which makes the typical Western diet not only undesirable from the standpoint of health but also environmentally unsustainable. If we balance energy intake with the expenditure required for basal metabolism, physical activity, growth, and repair, we will find that the dietary quality required for health is essentially the same across population groups."
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby pinkrose » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:18 pm

JeffN wrote:
JC73 wrote:Willett is about as mainstream an authority in the science of nutrition as you can get.


But not always accurate. His push of olive oil, the MED diet and the GI have all been shown to be flawed, even by some of his own studies.

However, while the evidence pointing to this exact diet is limited to the studies done on this exact diet, the overwhelming body of evidence from the WHO, FAO, IOM, NAS, NIH, AICR, etc etc, points to this.


From...

Human Vitamin and Mineral Requirements
Report of a joint FAO/WHO expert consultation
Bangkok, Thailand
WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION
FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
Rome, 2002

Quoting...

"Populations should consume nutritionally adequate and varied diets, based primarily on foods of plant origin with small amounts of added flesh foods. Households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses or legumes, and minimally processed starchy staple foods. The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent. A predominantly plant-based diet has a low energy density, which may protect against obesity."

"Although two-thirds of the world’s population depends on cereal or tuber-based diets, the other one-third consumes significant amounts of animal food products. The latter group places an undue demand on land, water, and other resources required for intensive food production, which makes the typical Western diet not only undesirable from the standpoint of health but also environmentally unsustainable. If we balance energy intake with the expenditure required for basal metabolism, physical activity, growth, and repair, we will find that the dietary quality required for health is essentially the same across population groups."


Great quote! I am happy to be associated with the nice people in the 2/3 who are McDougalling! :-D
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby landog » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:33 pm

I'm cold, too!

But, I think it has more to do with the fact that it is 7 degrees out (-14 C) than anything else. :-D

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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JC73 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:57 am

Jeff said"But not always accurate. His push of olive oil, the MED diet and the GI have all been shown to be flawed, even by some of his own studies.

However, while the evidence pointing to this exact diet is limited to the studies done on this exact diet, the overwhelming body of evidence from the WHO, FAO, IOM, NAS, NIH, AICR, etc etc, points to this."


I agree,Willett should be questioned because he is likely wrong on the Med diet....which is why we should question all authority even Dr McDougall.Every thing needs to be open to discussion and questions can't simply be dismissed as not being scientific .That was my point in bringing Willett into the conversation.He and his mainstream authorities may consider McDougall to be unscientific.I don't agree but you can see my point...it was not to claim Willett as an ultimate authority or to say Dr McDougall is less of an authority.

You may be right that weight loss accounts for feeling cold but do you think it's also responsible for a lower body temperature?

To f1jim...I know we are old rivals from the web MD diet debate board but you can't still hold to this conspiracy theory that everyone is out to tear down Dr McDougalls diet every time someone questions some element...and you can't go around using your own definitions as to what is credible or scientific.I'm not buying it.

Jeff's responce is more like what I was expecting from you.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JeffN » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 am

JC73 wrote:You may be right that weight loss accounts for feeling cold but do you think it's also responsible for a lower body temperature?


Strict CR, maintained over time, can result in a slightly lower body temperature. However, and again, most here are not practicing strict CR.

General weight loss, from overweight/obese to normal weight is not CR and does not result in a lower body temp but a reduction in weight which results in a reduction of body fat results in less insulation and often results in the feeling of cold, especially when compared to someone with a much higher amount of body fat.

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Re: I am so cold!

Postby f1jim » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:13 am

Nope, I don't think the list of people trying to defame Dr. McDougall is a large list. It's actually pretty small and getting smaller. I base my evaluation of you on your posts in the last couple of years. They say enough to convince anyone you have it in for him. Sad, really to watch your position on diet vacillate like the wind with every new article. I am actually encouraged to be able to read between the lines and I believe you actually may be coming to a point of belief, all while claiming the data is "mixed" and you can't seem to find the real answers. Maybe being in an active forum with people actually reaching their goals might have an effect on you. One can only hope.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby Burgess » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:22 am

JC73 wrote:... and you can't go around using your own definitions as to what is credible or scientific.
Why can't I? If my definitions are objective -- that is, logically formed from facts of reality -- why should I use another person's definitions or criteria?

(I realize you were speaking to another person, but your statement appears to be a generalization.)
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby f1jim » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:46 am

That's the problem, Burgess. You and I actually have objective definitions. While it's always a good thing to keep an open mind, and valuable to always carry skepticism in your pocket, at some point you have to go with where the evidence points to. It took me 51 years but for me that evidence clearly points to a low fat, plant based, whole foods diet. The more humans seem to follow that program the healthier they get and the longer they tend to live. The reverse seems to be true, too. I tend to dismiss some exciting new report that tells me I can eat anything I want in moderation. Or how I can't possibly thrive without taking this or that supplement. I like to watch the data cumulatively build support for my way of eating, and place less emphasis on some test tube experiment that bears little resemblance to what has worked for generation after generation. While I respect those that question the dietary norms I believe we all, on a daily basis, have to make choices about what goes in our mouths. Our decisions about what is and is not good for us comes to a decision point at every meal. We can make informed decisions or eat whatever and kick that decision down the road another year or two. As for our conflicts over the years, JC I refuse to let these forums become what happened to the old and new WebMD forums that are now essentially ghost towns. The old Ornish forum clearly ceased to exist when the "moderators" that didn't even believe in the program let the forum deteriorate into a structureless, leaderless, morass where little respect for the founder existed. No serious person trying to learn and follow that program would find it informative. Most of those members are now either here or on the PMRI board, or both.
For those following a McDougall type diet the endless arguing about the most basic of the programs tenets would drive people away in droves. There will always be conflicting information about any topic at any given time. And there is the influence of groups with an agenda that will always have an interest in promoting their product. They will be a source of much misinformation. To let them be a source of confusion is chaos. To let them be a reason to be undecided in dietary decisions is tragic. It's no accident why these forums have large participation and energetic members. The topics are engaging, the message is consistent, and the knowledge content is high. The fact that you, JC, are here says a lot. You can bash Dr. McDougall on other forums but it's ironic you chose to establish a presence here.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby Burgess » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:12 am

Indeed, there is a world of difference between these two:

1. Philosophical skepticism, which is the notion that knowledge is impossible. (So-called "moderate" or "mitigated" skepticism is the belief that some knowledge is possible but only about what is right in front of us and we can't form generalizations.)

2. Methodological skepticism which is the idea that one can and should doubt any new claim until it is proven by a logical argument leading from sense-perceptible facts to the final conclusion.

The first is bunk (and bunk that refutes itself). The second is always appropriate until evidence has accumulated. Then it is time to draw a conclusion and move on with life.

Another fallacy, besides philosophical skepticism, is the fallacy of thinking that only clinical studies are a valid source of knowledge for a person. I do consider reports of clinical studies, but I also consider personal observations, demographic studies, and -- ultimately most important -- my own informal experiments with my own eating.
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Re: I am so cold!

Postby JeffN » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:41 am

Burgess wrote:Another fallacy, besides philosophical skepticism, is the fallacy of thinking that only clinical studies are a valid source of knowledge for a person. I do consider reports of clinical studies, but I also consider personal observations, demographic studies, and -- ultimately most important -- my own informal experiments with my own eating.


You make an excellent point. And, just knowing you from your well thought out posts, your are more than likely applying what many would call an informal application of "the scientific method" to your personal observations and your own experiments. As we can see, you are a critical thinker who applies logic and reason. So, while your results are not published, they surely pass the criteria. Your own Star McDougall story tells the efforts and the detail you went into to achieve the position you now take.

Sadly though, few today either know how or take the time to do what you are recommending as the ability to think critically using logic and reason has become a rare trait. Instead, it has been replaced with random decisions based on limited information and limited evaluation, which is now even being called, research and also critical thinking.

A google search is not a research project or a thorough evaluation of the data. :)

I was teaching an introduction to nutrition class at a college and had to reformulate the syllabus to include a section in the beginning on critical thinking as I realized most of these college students did not know how to think critically.

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Re: I am so cold!

Postby soliver » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:50 am

Silver I tend to feel cold a lot too. But when I'm working out, particularly aerobic type activity (treadmill) I find it warms me up very quickly. I start out cold and miserable and it doesn't take too long to start heating up.

I also read something about shaking some cayenne powder in socks and gloves but haven't tried this myself. Probably should proceed with caution on that one if you have sensitive skin.
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