Are there exceptions to this WOE that require meat or dairy?

[Buckwheater]

Hi everyone,

I'm a new member. I don't mean for this post to be controversial (and maybe it's beyond the scope of this forum), but I'm not sure how to put it any other way.

Long story short, I've been following this WOE for 8 years and have had great improvements to my health. Naturally, I've done some vegan activism and talked to others a long the way about the merits of this WOE. In my experience it's fairly common for people to be sympathetic but resistant, usually citing a certain condition they have for why they're unable to adopt this diet. Some are making excuses to keep eating junk, no doubt, some others are understandably afraid to contradict their doctor's wisdom.

My question is do any of the doctors in the WFPB community (e.g., Dr. Ess, McDougall, Campbell, etc.) ever prescribe meat or dairy consumption for people with certain, maybe rare medical conditions? Are there "exceptions" to this WOE? I ask because I want to be respectful to the people I talk to in the slim chance they really do require animal foods. For example, I've heard gastroparesis and MCAS cited as conditions that require meat/dairy. I don't have any standing to question that, but I'm somewhat disinclined to believe what SAD eaters say when I've heard so many times how "impossible" it would be for someone like a celiac or a T2 diabetic to be vegan.

Thank you for all the lovely posts on this forum (especially from Jeff Novick!)

[Lyndzie]

I think I have heard of one condition, one of those things that are diagnosed as an infant because of failure to thrive, but can’t think of what it is. One of those things that has to do with metabolizing amino acids and the baby has to be out on a special formula. You know, the kind of disease that you’ve heard of but don’t actually know anybody that has it.

It’s kinda like asking if a gorilla ever needs to eat meat. They presumably can tolerate a certain amount, but it’s not what they are suppose to be eating.

[f1jim]

I've never heard of such a condition, though I have heard a person claim this was the case for themselves!
It makes no sense for the body to require something it intrinsically doesn't need. Ask yourself what animal foods deliver that plants cannot.
f1jim

[Ltldogg]

There have been some rare conditions where there is scientific evidence that a keto or high fat animal diet have helped a patient prevent/limit such symptoms of seizures, BUT, and this is a HUGE BUT, that does not protect an individual from ALL the NEGATIVE health aspects of eating animal products like increased risks of Cancer, Heart Disease, Weight Gain, Diabetes, etc.

So my opinion is no, there are no exceptions, to this WOE. There is absolutely no requirement for anyone to eat meat or dairy. Even in such conditions as I mentioned above, those individuals are are not dying from a lack of meat or dairy; no evidence to support such a grand claim.

[moonlight]

I think I have heard of one condition, one of those things that are diagnosed as an infant because of failure to thrive, but can’t think of what it is. One of those things that has to do with metabolizing amino acids and the baby has to be out on a special formula. You know, the kind of disease that you’ve heard of but don’t actually know anybody that has it.

It’s kinda like asking if a gorilla ever needs to eat meat. They presumably can tolerate a certain amount, but it’s not what they are suppose to be eating.

I think you are describing PKU, phenylketonuria. It is diagnosed from the skin prick screening a newborn gets. It's a genetic disorder, rare, where the body cannot convert the amino acid phenylalanine for use in the body and it builds up. It can cause damage to the brain before symptoms show up. That's why the newborn screening has been so widely accepted. It's a recessive gene that causes it so parents don't know to look out for it. Once diagnosed, the individual is on a special diet for life. They essentially eat a low protein vegan diet and supplement with a special formula that provides protein without the amino acid phenylalanine. A friend of mine has a daughter who has this condition. She is a very healthy adult who has had two children of her own.

[gracezw]

Childhood seizure comes to my mind too. A gorilla eats 97% whole plants, according to Dr. Greger.

I think I have heard of one condition, one of those things that are diagnosed as an infant because of failure to thrive, but can’t think of what it is. One of those things that has to do with metabolizing amino acids and the baby has to be out on a special formula. You know, the kind of disease that you’ve heard of but don’t actually know anybody that has it.

It’s kinda like asking if a gorilla ever needs to eat meat. They presumably can tolerate a certain amount, but it’s not what they are suppose to be eating.

[barryoilbegone]

One exception has been noted by Dr Michael Klaper of the WFPB community- of biological difficulty or inability to create carnitine or creatin. But it occurs only under special conditions. Usually this because of regular, excess exposure to animal products changing early biology, and setting up dependence and addiction. Aka, this is not a healthy exception:

https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyl ... ing-doctor

"He advises lapsed vegans with meat cravings to eat meat once a week until they can cut it out".

I don't know either on this front - this may be one of the few times supplements for creatine/carnitine (if they're well tolerated) might be advised instead for a time, if prescribed by a knowledgeable medic. This is until the enzymatic and biology activity of the individual kicks in to do it instead.

Seems better option than carrying on regular meat consumption, as long as the supplement is safe, short term. Obviously then (probably aside from vitamin B12, or vit C perhaps), all supplements seem to have some consequences, if taken long term.

[Lyndzie]

I think I have heard of one condition, one of those things that are diagnosed as an infant because of failure to thrive, but can’t think of what it is. One of those things that has to do with metabolizing amino acids and the baby has to be out on a special formula. You know, the kind of disease that you’ve heard of but don’t actually know anybody that has it.

It’s kinda like asking if a gorilla ever needs to eat meat. They presumably can tolerate a certain amount, but it’s not what they are suppose to be eating.

I think you are describing PKU, phenylketonuria. It is diagnosed from the skin prick screening a newborn gets. It's a genetic disorder, rare, where the body cannot convert the amino acid phenylalanine for use in the body and it builds up. It can cause damage to the brain before symptoms show up. That's why the newborn screening has been so widely accepted. It's a recessive gene that causes it so parents don't know to look out for it. Once diagnosed, the individual is on a special diet for life. They essentially eat a low protein vegan diet and supplement with a special formula that provides protein without the amino acid phenylalanine. A friend of mine has a daughter who has this condition. She is a very healthy adult who has had two children of her own.

You are totally right.

[JeffN]

No. We have never see this come up.

None of the above situation require the consumption of meat or dairy.

In regard to the keto diet, children and epilepsy, this is true but one can be on a high fat keto diet without animals as the proposed benefit is from the diet induced ketosis, not the animals.

In regard to carnitine, that is speculation which we have never seen it over 35 years, don’t know of any evidence supporting it, and even if it was true, could easily be resolved with a vegan carnitine supplement.

In regard to PKU, the recommended PKU diet can easily be followed on a vegan diet so no animal products are not required.

In Health
Jeff

[Drew_ab]

No. We have never see this come up.

None of the above situation require the consumption of meat or dairy.

In regard to the keto diet, children and epilepsy, this is true but one can be on a high fat keto diet without animals as the proposed benefit is from the diet induced ketosis, not the animals.

In regard to carnitine, that is speculation which we have never seen it over 35 years, don’t know of any evidence supporting it, and even if it was true, could easily be resolved with a vegan carnitine supplement.

In regard to PKU, the recommendations for the PKU diet can easily be followed on a vegan diet so no animal products are not required.

In Health
Jeff

I think Jeff makes an interesting point about the 35-years. We can easily come up with a few theoretical reasons (1 in 1 000 000 chance) why one should consume meat or dairy, but take it from Jeff Novick who has been working in this field for three and half decades who has not yet observed the need for meat/dairy and well... that tells you something.

In theory, if one could not take a b-12 supplement then perhaps you can make a case for small amounts (less than 5% of calories) of calories from whole animal sources. Again though, we can obtain b-12 from non-animal sources and probably in a more reliable fashion.

[f1jim]

Sometimes people need an excuse more than they need animal products! If the theoretical need exists, no matter how remote, then that is all they need to justify meat consumption.
f1jim

[gracezw]

Jeff, thank you! I have a related question for you. Do the mainstream nutrition science textbooks state, explicitly or implicitly, that any of the animal foods are required or optional?

No. We have never see this come up.

None of the above situation require the consumption of meat or dairy.

In regard to the keto diet, children and epilepsy, this is true but one can be on a high fat keto diet without animals as the proposed benefit is from the diet induced ketosis, not the animals.

In regard to carnitine, that is speculation which we have never seen it over 35 years, don’t know of any evidence supporting it, and even if it was true, could easily be resolved with a vegan carnitine supplement.

In regard to PKU, the recommended PKU diet can easily be followed on a vegan diet so no animal products are not required.

In Health
Jeff

[bluegenes]

What is WOE? It would be really helpful if people used the actual words at least once. I have followed this diet for many years, but can't recall or look up the meaning - thanks

[Lyndzie]

WOE = Way Of Eating

LOL

[bluegenes]

Thanks Lyndzie.... way of eating -- gotta keep that in my mind