Discussion Board

Hi Jeff,

I have read Dr McDougall and others such as Dr Esslysten talk about not using a drop of oil especially for those who have had heart diease and want to reverse it.

I understand that some oils may contain saturated fat which is bad as it gets converted into Cholesterol. Oils are also high in calories so it will be difficult to maintain healthy weight at the same time keep consuming oil which is high in fat (1 tbsp = 14 g = 140 Calories)

So we can conclude that if oil is used liberally it will raise cholesterol levels, weight gain and other associated problem such as high blood pressure, diabetes etc etc.

Now what if if someone is consuming oils which are very low in saturated fat and high in mono and polyunsaturated fat and used in a very low quantity such as say less than a tbsp?

Can you please explain why oil even in small quantity is prohibited on reversal diet? Should we treat fat from oil equivalent to other fats or there is something beyond fat in an oil which is nutritionally dangerous?

Hi,

My question to you is, why oil?

Due to very effective marketing and advertising, we have become convinced that oil is not only a food, but a health food. This is crazy. To be a food, something must be able to support healthy life and be of some benefit.

Oil is a highly refined processed and extracted food "product". It has no protein or essential amino acids (which we need), it has no carbohydrates, or sugars (which we need), it has no fiber (which we need), it has no minerals (which we need) and has virtually no vitamins (which we need) except for a small amount of Vit E and some phytosterols.

But, on the other hand, it is pure fat and the most calorie dense food on the planet. While all oils have a mixture of mono, poly and saturated fat, most oils are very low in the essential fat omega 3 (which some of us may need more of), very high in the omega 6 (which most of us need to lower) and most oils also have high ratios of omega 6 to omega 3 (which most all of us need to lower).

So, basically you are getting lots of calories (oils has almost 2.5 x more calorie per TB than sugar). lots of omega 6s, some saturated fat (depending on the oil) and virtually no nutrients.

The definition of a junk food is a food that is high in calories (and/or fat, sugar, salt) and has little if any nutrient value at all.

IMHO (and by definition), Oil, is more of a junk food than sugar. And, I hope that in a few years, we will all come to understand it and see it, as such.



I do not conclude that. I conclude that oil will significantly increase the calorie density and significantly decrease the "overall" nutrient density of any diet it is added to, which are the exact opposite goals most people are working towards.

Diets with increased calorie density can lead to obesity and obesity does increase your risk for heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure and many others.

Some oils, depending on the percent saturated fat they contain may directly increase cholesterol levels.

Here is something to think about... right now the typical American diet is 10-12% saturated fat. Olive oil is around 14% saturated fat. The AHA is now recommending that Americans reduce the percentage of saturated fat in their diet to below 10%, if not below 7% (for those at risk, which is just about everyone is America). I think below 5% is optimal.

So, Olive oil = 14%
American Diet = 12%
AHA = 7-10%
Optimal = < 5%

How much of something 14% Saturated fat, can you add to something that is already 12% saturated fat to get the total saturated fat below 10%? let alone below 7%, let alone below 5%?

By, the way, guess how many oils have a saturated fat level below 10%? let alone below 7%, let alone below 5%?



We should treat oil for what it really is (junk food) and the same way we treat other foods in the same category.

Oil is junk food. Pure and simple. Treat it like the junk food it really is.

If you choose to include a small amount of junk food in your diet, that is up to you. I am sure most people, if they otherwise have an optimal diet, could get away with around 5% of their calories from junk food and not be harmed by it.

However, you would probably want to choose the junk food that is going to do the least harm and has the best overall picture But, I am not going to recommend one, or try to figure out which is the best junk food for you.

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD

PS, OK, I will. The only oil, that comes close to the criteria I mentioned is canola oil. It is the lowest in saturated fat, one of the highest in omega 3s and the only one with a ratio of omega 6: omega 3 that is less than 4:1. Now, to be clear, I am not recommending you consume canola oil, but in comparison to all other oils, I think it has the best overall picture.

Another reason, not just because oil is calorically dense, but it's fat calories, and according to Dr. McDougall's Maximum Weight Loss book, our body uses fat calories differently than carb calories. The fat calories go straight to fat cells; the body prefers to store fat calories and prefers to use carb calories for energy. Most people want to lose weight and a lot of them on here, I've seen, when they make the effort to cut out the oils and fat calories is when they really start seeing a difference. It's explained well in the book.

Jeff if we coat our food in oil, say for instance, nice chopped cooked carrot chunks, would the oil coating make it harder for the stomach to digest?

BTW I love your UTube presentation on how much oil actually makes it into you fat supplies. I think you said that added oil only used 3% of its total calories in the digestion process and the rest is stored as fat.

Jeff,

Thank you for your insightful reply. Believe me I agree when you call oil the junk food. Why oil? without oil food sticks to even non-stick pans!

a Tbsp of olive oil has 10% saturated fat and 16% total fat based on 2000 calories daily diet. So you are right in saying how much of 10% you can add to get below 5-7%? This would be true if you were consuming over 1 tbsp of oil, otherwise it won't be 10% or 16%.

What you stated would be true if someone was consuming let's say 1/2 tbsp and above.

Dr Esslysten says, not to use even DROP of OIL and Dr McD says the same thing ( not to use any oil, not sure whether he said not to use even drop of oil), this made me curious to find out why NOT a single drop of oil. If someone is not overweight, cholesterol numbers are in within limit, is there any thing in oil other than what you have stated ( Junk food, obesity, diebets, high cholesterol, dense calories) that is particular dangerous to those who wants to reverse the heart disease.

Jaggu -

I have been cooking without oil and have not had a problem. I use water, tomato juice, and veggie broth. This is without non stick pans as I have two parrots and cannot use them.

My two thoughts are to add more liquid or turn the heat down.

Hope you find a solution.

Donna

Greetings,

According to the standard reference for nutrition analysis, the USDA SR-20, olive oil is 14% saturated fat.

I use percentages for a reason, as when you do, it does not matter the amount you use as the percentage stays the same. Percentage fat is not dependant on the amount. So regardless whether you have a TB or a tsp or a cup or a drop, olive oil is 14% saturated fat. Adding any amount of something 14% saturated fat to something that is 10-12% saturated fat ( the typical American diet) will only (& always) raise the overall total percentage of saturated fat. The more you add, the higher the percentage will go.

If you have a diet that is 2000 calories and 5% saturated fat and you add 1 TB of olive oil, the diet is now 5.5% saturted fat. the percentage went up. If you add just a tsp, the percentage will also go up, but not as much as if you added a TB. If you add 2 TB, it will go up more.

As saturated fat is a risk factor for heart disease, the safest approach would be to not add any more Saturated fat to a diet that is already higher in saturated fat than what is recommended, or optimal.

If someone was to use oil, the last thing I would recommend is for them to use it for cooking as heating most oils is not a good idea as it can create harmful chemicals. The oils that are more heat stable and recommended for cooking are more heat stable because they are much higher in saturated fat, so now that would be the issue.

For the last 25 years I have cooked food without the use of any oil as have many many others, & I do not use non-stick pans. You may want to check out the McDougall cookbooks & others like it.

Cooking without oil maybe a change, and a learning experience, but one that is worth making and undertaking.

I guess the answer to your personal specific question would be for you to try & create a diet that is below 5% saturated fat and includes olive oil.

In Heath
Jeff Novick, MS, RD

Jaggu, I think it's also important to not use oil because it is a processed food, like Jeff and Dr. McD have said. Nature packages the oils with fiber and antioxidants and other substances that we're supposed to consume along with the oil. When you remove the oil from its package, who knows what damage you're doing to the oil? Then when you eat the oil, who knows what damage that is doing to your body? We all need some fat in our diet, but that fat should come along with all the other protective qualities of the food in which the fat is naturally found.

Can you confirm this? When we say your saturated fat consumption should be less than 5% or total fat consumption to be less than 10%. Is that a % of total calories consumed or it's pure percentage? If that's case, you can not eat any food that contains more than 5% saturated fat even in the minuscule amount. Percentage distribution between Saturated, mono, poly unsaturated, carbohydrate, protein will remain the same no matter how small or how big the quantity is. In this case for instance, a drop of oil and and gallon of oil will have the same percentage distribution. Nutrition facts lables are written as a % of daily value which is typically 2000 or 3000 calories.

Hi,



Sure. The American Heart Association Scientific Position on Fat,

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter. ... ifier=4582

which was published in the journal Circulation in June 2006,

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content ... t/114/1/82

state:

"Saturated fat intake should not exceed 7 percent of total calories each day."

That is the AHA.

The Ornish, Pritikin, Esselstyne and McDougall program have all published studies on their effectiveness and their diets contain less than 5% saturated fat. In fact, the only programs that have been able to scientifically document the reversal of heart disease have done it on a diet that has less than 5% of calories from saturated fat.

In addition, that is the saturated fat level of most all the populations that have extremely low levels of heart disease and are long lived.

(But, if you like, and you do not like where i get the 5% from, we could just use the 7% as it will not change the main point of my discussion.)



That is the overall average of total calories from saturated fat. Saturated fat intake should not exceed 5 percent of total calories each day.



I have not said that, nor will I. I encouraged you to try and put together a diet that contains olive oil (which is over 5% saturated fat) and see how much you can add to the diet and still keep the total percentage of saturated fat of the total diet below 5%. It can be done and we can learn a lot from doing the experiment and it can give us a better understanding of the problem.

Many, if not most, plant foods are below 5% saturated fat, so clearly, there is room for foods whose percentage saturated fat is over 5%. However, there is not much room for those foods whose percentage is far over 5%. And, the higher the percentage over 5%, the less room there will be. Olive oil is 14% saturated fat and coconut oil is 91% saturated fat, so there would be less room for coconut oil.

If you have a diet that has 2 foods.

Food A contributes 1000 calories and is 2% saturated fat.

Food B contributes 1000 calories and is 8% saturated fat.

Then, the total diet is 2000 calories and the saturated fat is 5%. Yet, half the diet contained a food that was over 5% saturated fat.

The problem in America today, is that the typical American diet is already to high in saturated fat, averaging around 10-12%. So, unless Americans, reduce the saturated fat level in their overall diet, how much of any food over 5% can they add? None.

But, what if Americans did consume a diet that was 4% saturated fat or less, which could be done. Would they then have room for a small amount of some foods that were over 5%? Of course. But, 1) there will not be too much room for them and, 2) the higher the percentage of saturated fat they contained over 5%, the less room there will be.



Correct.



That is why I recommend people to never ever look at, or use, the % of DV's on a Nutrition Facts label. They are misleading and confusing.

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD

Jeff,

Thanks for all your posts. Full of wisdom and I enjoy reading them.

While we are at this what is your take on following.

Excerpts from AHA:

Polyunsaturated fats tend to help your body get rid of newly formed cholesterol. Thus, they keep the blood cholesterol level down and reduce cholesterol deposits in artery walls. Recent research has shown that monounsaturated fats may also help reduce blood cholesterol as long as the diet is very low in saturated fat.

Both types of unsaturated fats may help lower your blood cholesterol level when used in place of saturated fats in your diet. But you should be moderate in eating all types of fat, because fats contain more than twice the calories of either protein or carbohydrate.
Is it true that Poly and Mono unsaturated fat will help lower total cholesterol and may help increase HDL the protective cholesterol?

If that's the case for e.g. Canola oil contains all types of fat and significant portion of that is poly and mono unsaturated fat. If you have to compare all the benefits and drawbacks side by side, how would you do it?

Don't we need some amount of fat ? How much fat is required and what type of what?

Yes. It's very low -- lower than what comes from whole, unprocessed plant foods in their natural state. Humans don't *need* added fat at all. The percent of calories from fat in a whole, unprocessed plant foods diet, I have been told, runs somewhere between 7% and 12%. That's plenty. Dr. McDougall has written lots about this and he's very clear. If you haven't already, I invite you to check out his articles on this site and his books.

It is really misleading the way it is presented.

If a diet is high in saturated fat, and you substitute an equal amount of poly for the saturated, cholesterol levels will "appear" to go down. If you substitute an equal amount of mono, cholesterol levels, will stay the same and/or may go down slightly.

However, this is only when they are substituted on a equal calorie basis for saturated fat. But this does not apply because why would you be eating a diet high in saturated fat? No one, as I showed you, is recommending this. If you take someone who is on a low fat, low saturated fat diet, and their cholesterol is low, and you then add in either mono or poly, cholesterol is not going down any lower.



The only fat humans need to eat, that they do not make themselves is called essential fat. The recommended ranges are somewhere around .5 to 1% on the low end to around 3 - 5% calories on the more upper end, depending on how you look at it. The ctual number recommendations are 1.1-1.6 grams by the NAS and 2.2 by the NIH.

This is the equivalent of about 1/4 to 1/5 a tsp.

All whole plant foods range anywhere from 1-15% fat (Oatmeal is 16% fat).

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD

So in nutshell, do not eat any fat of whatsoever type. Certainly not the saturated and trans fat but also unsaturated fats such as poly and mono unsaturated fat. Whatever little essential fats are required, you will get that no matter what as long as you are eating some food. Infact there is no such thing as fat deficiency diet, if at all you have to worry and try hard in making sure you don't eat too much fat.

Some people have reported that on a low fat diet their HDL went down along with total cholesterol. Isn't high HDL supposed to reverse the plaque build up in the arteries by transporting it to lever? on the same token, higher LDL will plug the arteries. Once the arteries are plugged, total lower cholesterol and hence low LDL may prevent the further build up but for reversal don't you need higher HDL?

To sum up the issues around fat....

1) The need for essential fats can be meet through whole natural foods without adding any concentrated sources.

2) Unsaturated fats are less harmful than saturated fats.

3) Hydrogenated Fats and Trans fats are probably the worst fats.

4) Substituting saturated fat with unsaturated fats, without adding additional calories, may lower cholesterol levels and the risk for CVD and some cancers and possible DB. This is an "improvement", not an ideal recommendation and is a result of the "substitution" and not the "addition".

5) Substituting refined carbohydrates and/or sugar with unsaturated fats
without adding additional calories may lower risk for CVD, DB and some
cancers. This is an "improvement", not an ideal recommendation and a result of the "substitution" and not the "addition".

6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated fats, or
unsaturated fats to an otherwise optimal diet will improve the diet.

7) the Med diet was healthy not because of the olive oil, but in spite of
the olive oil. If the olive oil added any benefit, it was because of
some phytonutrients in the olive oil, and not any specific fat or fatty
acid.

8 ) Oils rich in PUFAs are more unstable than oils rich in MUFA and have
been shown to increase growth rate (but not initiate) of some cancers in
animals and possibly in humans, especially those which are high in Omega 6s.

9) I have never seen any conclusive evidence putting sat fat in a "healthy"
light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs.

10) Focus your diet on and consume a variety of healthy unrefined unprocessed fresh fruit, veggies, starchy veggies, whole grains and legumes.

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD