muscle and mcdougall

[grinny]

Being a personal trainer and an athlete, I'd like to stay as fit as possible, and I am worried that as I phase meat (mostly fish at this point) out of my diet that I am going to lose significant muscle mass. Even as I have changed my diet over the past 2 months (and eaten far less meat), I have lost 18 pounds. I don't want to "judge" my new weight as bad. I've even read the article about how a 6'1" male should be no more than 165 lbs. Maybe at my current weight of 162 lbs. I am more "fit" than before, however, I'd love to hear from people who work out with heavy weights and how they have kept muscle from disappearing. I'm also concerned that I may not be getting enough protein in terms of repairing damaged cells or maintaining a healthy immune system. I'm sure these are all concerns of a "newbie," which I am, but if someone would take the time to relay their personal stories I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm truly trying to become as healthy as possible, which has a slightly different connotation then being as fit as possible, although I'd like to believe that they go hand in hand. Thank you all.

[AnnaS]

An example of someone who's a vegan/McDougaller with fabulous, world-class muscle tone is Olympian Carl Lewis. Read Dr. McDougall's article about him, "Building Your Own High-Performance Athletic Body" at:
http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030900.htm
(September 2003 newsletter). There's a great picture there.

Lewis said his best years as an athlete came after he changed his diet.

--Anna

[SarahJ]

I will have been eating a vegan diet (imperfectly, I must admit) for almost two years now. It will be two years in August. It was a year ago last January that I switched to the whole foods approach. My first year doing this I ate meat about once every three weeks (a result of poor planning). The last few months I've had meat maybe 3 times, so I can say it isn't supplying most of my protein needs. I haven't eaten dairy foods in a real portion size for more than ten years (lactose intolerance). I don't like eggs, so haven't eaten them regularly in years. I eat beans every day.

For the past few months I have begun strength training. I'm not using heavy weights, just dumbbells and ankle weights and my own body weight (ok, that is a bit on the heavy side). I'm noticing real improvement. My thighs are starting to feel like they did when I was a teenage omni that rode her bike everywhere for transportation, and my arms are getting toned. I can tell that I'm getting stronger. My fingernails are getting hard to keep reasonably short, they seem to be getting harder. They do chip a little occasionally, but I've never had them break off. My toenails are now tough as nails and difficult to trim, after a life time of their being thin. If anything, I think my body is doing better in the protein department. I don't know why that would be. Perhaps it is a result of improved circulation. Really, I think Dr. McDougall is right about not worrying about us getting enough protein.

[Steve]

Look at the thread regarding aging Jack La Lane, and take the link to the update. Jack was a vegetarian since he was 15 years old and was a champion body builder in his 20's and 30's. But look at the amazing pictures. If you are old enough to remember his fitness show on television, he looked good then, but he was already in his fifties. He is still in good shape in his 90's and continues to exercise and perform amazing athletic feats.
If you are losing weight you can add olives and avocado to reverse the situation. Dr. McDougall has a newsletter article about stopping the weight loss.
Good luck. You will make a great Star McDouglar if you can get into great shape on this program. Keep us informed. Most of us came to this to avoid heart disease, diabetes, obesity, arthritis, etc. You might be coming to this to get into incredible physical shape.
Best of luck,

[Carol]

I can only add a couple points to what has already been shared here, and it's a point that I learned from Dr. McD.

Do you agree that a mother's milk is thee most ideal food for an infant? And do you also agree that a growing infant would need more protein than a full-grown adult? Guess how much protein is in mother's milk? Five percent (5%). That's it. Nature has pre-determined that that amount of protein is ideal for nourishing a growing infant who will double it's size in what....a year or so?

Now, let's look at the amount of protein in vegetables: Spinach-51%; Broccoli-43%. Amazing, huh? And a potato...something like 7%. This is WAY more than the large amount of protein needed to nourish a growing infant.

High amounts of protein tax the kidneys and causes bone loss. The right amount (found in a vegan diet) will support good health.

I hope I'm not coming across like a preacher. I just find these facts fascinating. Have you read The China Study? I think it's a must read for anyone concerned about their health.

[hope101]

When I was a SAD eater I regularly strength trained at the gym. After two years of progressive work, at my best I could do about 3 sets of 15 reps of leg presses without getting sore. I think that is pretty reasonable for a female (you will know better). Now I have been vegetarian for 16 months, vegan for 7 and my formal exercise other than walking has been dancing 3 or so times a week. Obviously not enough upper body work, although we do light weights there too. This weekend I went to the gym and was able to do every single one of my previous leg exercises as if I never left and had no soreness at all. So for me at least personally, the lower protein diet has had no impact on my strength. Wrt endurance, however, I definitely am better on this diet.

[libellule]

There was a great article in the living nutrition magazine about a really buff fellow that is a personal trainer who is raw vegan. It was a good article and all I can say is the "proof is in the pudding," so to speak. There were a couple of articles advocating a very low-fat vegan diet. But, this one, was specifically about a really active, buff fellow. His picture is included in the magazine.

Have fun.
Li

[grinny]

Thank you all for the replies. I have read the China Study and I think it's a wonderful book. I also just read the article about "Building your own high-perfomance body." Great. I also appreciate the annecdote about the protein content in mother's milk. I guess what it boils down to for me is trust at the beginning of this lifestyle change. I got scared dropping from 180 lbs. and 11% body fat to 163 lbs. and 8% body fat. I am certainly more "ripped" at 8% body fat, but I feel like I have lost a little bit of muscle as well. Ultimately I'm thinking that I'm probably healthier at the 163 lbs., and I'll just have to get used to being more ripped with slightly less muscle mass. But perhaps, once I've perfected the diet, I may be able to add a little more muscle back. If not, then maybe I need to "trust" that this new weight is simply where my body is the healthiest. Thanks again you guys.

G

[Carol]

Grinny,

If you are also concerned about weight(loss), you could choose higher fat/calorie foods like olives, avocados, nuts and seeds. I love those foods, but as you can see, I'm not supposed to have them (yet).

Don't remember where I read this, but eating animal flesh (protein) doesn't build muscle mass. It does give us lots of health problems to contend with though. Maybe it's simply your recent weight loss, which you can undo by eating those things listed above, that has affected the change. Is it possible that you didn't loose muscle mass, but fat around the muscle? You know....that smooth rounded look vs. the cut/sharp look. Just a thought.

Still, I do feel just a teeny weeny bit jealous.

[grinny]

Thanks Carol,

It's actually a little bit of both. I have lost a tiny bit of strength in my weight lifting, so I know that I haven't lost 20 lbs. of muscle. I'm guessing that most of the weight loss was fat, but maybe a little muscle was lost in the process.

Grinny

[serenity]

I think that with any weight loss there will be a mix of water, fat, and muscle. Obviously, the fat loss is what we are after. If your fat % are accurate, you've achieved that goal. Good job!

You might feel better if you put pencil to paper (metophorically in this age of internet tools) and actually figured out how much protein you are getting.

First, how much do you believe that you need? I think it helps to have a concrete number to take a rational approach to whether there is a problem or not.

Since you are an athlete and male (I think from what you've posted), is it reasonable to assume that you could eat 2,500 - 3,000 calories per day? Whatever the number, the principle will be the same. At 5% of 3,000 calories, protein would account for 150 calories or slightly less than 40 grams. But I think if you tracked in Fit Day or some other nutrition database, you will find it impossible to eat so few grams of protein if you eat 3,000 of quality plant based food. I would bet that you will be closer to 10% protein (maybe more if you eat a lot of beans.) That will be almost 80 grams of protein. I don't think that anyone can argue that isn't enough even for an athlete.

I think that if you crunch the numbers, you will find it impossible to design a protein deficient diet (unless you get silly and eat only jelly beans and beer.) Putting it in black and white might help assuage any nagging concerns. Just a thought.

[DianeR]

Here's another article for you to read, by a vegan bodybuilder:
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

Before my recent vacation, I started on an intensive exercise program with lots of resistance work (among other things, woof ...) Anyway, I gained muscle & lost body fat percentage, all the while continuing my regular McDougall diet. Indeed, on a discussion board for people on this program, I had to bite my tongue all the time people mentioned wonking out in the middle of workouts, etc., and realizing, well, maybe they need some carbs. (The diet recommended by the program itself is ridiculously high in protein.)

On vacation I had to eat fish if I wanted to get enough calories. (On a small river cruise ship; I tried & tried, but fish was the best I could do. Being gluten-intolerant made things more difficult.) Anyway, did I feel a surge of strength & vigor? No, I feel weaker as time went on. I came home & promptly was sick for days; I think my immunity had been impaired.

Now I'm off the animal protein again & starting up exercise again. Feeling much better, finally ...

Perhaps you should go completely off meat and see what happens and not judge by how you did when you simply cut back. You may have lost weight because you were having less calories, which could have taken some muscle mass. There is no reason you can't add that back by getting enough calories on a healthy diet (McDougall) and doing resistance work.

I remember researching this and being unable to find any evidence that eating protein translates to getting muscle.

[Zena]

Unfortunately, I haven't been doing much exercise other than walking since I started (I really need to change that!). But the muscle/strength I do have, seems like I've kept even with losing weight. I haven't had any testing done so all I can do is just make a personal judgement. I do have alot more endurance.

The article DianeR listed is a great one and has a photo of one of the athletes I was going to mention, Kenneth Williams, a professional vegan bodybuilder. This link has a feature about him: http://www.idausa.org/kgw_frame.html

Another great example is Spice Williams who's an actress, stuntwoman, model, bodybuilder, and nutritional writer in various fitness magazines. Her site is at http://spicewilliamscrosby.com/ Her bio and photos are impressive.

Not sure if you're familiar with the veganbodybuilding.com site. There's lots for all vegan athletes, endurence as well as strength. Here's one of the articles I liked on vegan strength coach, Mike Maher http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/article/565

[grinny]

Thanks again everyone. I've now read many of the articles you have all listed and it helps.
Grinny

[DavidMR]

I've been losing weight since the beginning of the year, and I've also been concerned about losing muscle in the process. I have not been 100% vegan, but I cut way way down on all animal-related products.

So I bought an Accumeasure Fitness 3000 body fat caliper. It costs about $20 and allows me to measure my body fat with reasonable accuracy. By subtracting one's body fat from total weight, one gets a measure of lean body mass--which includes muscle. I've been doing strength training two or three times per week, and I've been gradually increasing the resistance on all my exercises. And according to the body fat caliper, I've been adding a few pounds of lean body mass while my total weight has been decreasing.

My goal is not a particular weight--it is a particular body fat percentage--21% is about ideal for my age. That percentage may be a little high--I'm not sure.