Meditation

[Danko]

Hi folks

I suffer quite badly from an unusual form of OCD that I have had pretty mush ever since I can remember. I have started using MBSR techniwues by Jon Kabat-Zinn and MBCT as applied by the UK psychologist Mark Williams.

Are there any other meditators out there, and what benefits have you enjoyed?

[Reikiman]

Hi Danko.

I have been meditating off and on since college- so a little more than 25 years. In the early years I used a variety of 'programs' that are available- and over time borrowed what worked for me, 'invented' my own stuff, and settled on a 'style' that works for me. I used to be a Buddhist, so a lot of what I do is either totally silent meditation or chanting. I ocassionally will use a guided meditation or some music- but silence works best for me at this point.

IMO a guided program is a good way to start, but eventually you will get to the point where you can quiet your mind without using guided meditations and just observe your thoughts and allow them to pass. This takes a long time to 'achieve', though- but once you get to this point in your practice the peace one experiences is beyond desciption. In addition to this peace ( or absolute quietude- or whatever you want to call it), meditation helps relieve stress and over time will quiet your mind so the random thoughts that run through everyone's head are few and far between. I find that the experience of 'oneness' with everything in the universe is the best 'result' though. A lot of these things cannot be descibed adequately. If you want to learn more about traditional methods of meditation then I would recommend you start by reading some of the books by Thich Nhat Hanh. His observations will change the way you look at everything

[Danko]

Reikiman, thanks for such a detailed and thought-provoking reply. I have read one book by Thich Nhat Hanh as an intro to midfulness (embarrasingly, I cannot recall the title).

I have got to a point where I find guided meditations sometimes irritating. But the major problem I have is keeping awake. It as though I go into a semi-sleep stage, where I am conscious, but drowsy and dreaming. I am also aware of, say, during the body scan, moving awareness around the body, but this is very much a peripheral happening and the 'dreaming' predominates.

I have reached a bit of an impasse, where I feel I need to have 'better' experiences but, realise that this is against the spirit of meditation.

An experienced practitioner such as yourself will be able to see I am but a novice, so any advice you could give would be great!

Thanks again for your post!

[Danko]

Forgive me for impinging on you a little more, but if you could help with any of the following, that would be great!

1. It seems rom what I have read thus far that the ultimate aim is to be able to let all thoughts drift across the mind without being caught up in them, in everyday life. If this is so, how do we know which thoughts to act on? Using an example that happened a little earlier, I noticed a mole on my torso that will need to be looked at. If I let that thought go, it will have passed through without me acting on it and I will do nothing in response.
Is my misunderstanding that by 'ackonwledging' the thought, I can act on it without ruminating?

2. Letting thoughts pass seems to me at this stage of my practice (limited as it is!) that by being an 'external observer' of thoughts is almost to have to let go of personality and self-image and try and be a 'blank canvas'. Am I wrong?

I know these Qs might be a little deep and require a long answer but, if you are minded to reply, please, please do not feel obligated to write lengthy responses. Literally anything to clarify my own thoughts, however

[Caroveggie]

I took a free meditation class offered online at www.gnosticweb.com. This website has a spiritual side to it also and I've found it valuable. They instruct different practices you can do and also their Self Discovery class I liked, and has many meditative elements. I would say both those courses go hand in hand, and they offer other courses as well.

The class is very structured and each week there is a lesson and you work on one exercise every day for that week, and then you can ask questions in a forum and sometimes live through a webcam.

One thing I like about them is that while they teach theory also, their method is very much self-oriented in that you are not asked to believe anything they teach - you just do the exercises and from that you get your own understanding and progress in your practice. (What I mean is you can verify what they teach through your own experience, rather than relying on theory.)

Also, I happened to read an article just recently in the current issue of Health magazine about OCD. It was about some different people and what treatments they found helpful. I forget the name of the treatment, but in general it was learning to cope with the feelings that came up when the person didn't go along with the OCD drives inside them. I'm not sure if I have the magazine, but I can find a way to send you a copy of the article if I still have it, you can PM me and I can email it when I get a minute (if I still have it.) So I think you are on the right track with trying meditation for it.

[TominTN]

Forgive me for impinging on you a little more, but if you could help with any of the following, that would be great!

1. It seems rom what I have read thus far that the ultimate aim is to be able to let all thoughts drift across the mind without being caught up in them, in everyday life. If this is so, how do we know which thoughts to act on? Using an example that happened a little earlier, I noticed a mole on my torso that will need to be looked at. If I let that thought go, it will have passed through without me acting on it and I will do nothing in response.
Is my misunderstanding that by 'ackonwledging' the thought, I can act on it without ruminating?

I notice that some thoughts provoke a response while others don't. I don't know ahead of time which to act on. I just notice that sometimes action arises in response to a thought, sometimes it doesn't. Maybe a thought will float through three or four times and there's a response the fifth time. Sometimes the first time. Notice what you already do. You don't have to overthink it.

2. Letting thoughts pass seems to me at this stage of my practice (limited as it is!) that by being an 'external observer' of thoughts is almost to have to let go of personality and self-image and try and be a 'blank canvas'. Am I wrong?

That's a profound observation! What I hear you saying is that personality and self-image are just more thoughts. You don't have to *try* to be a blank canvas, just notice that you already are.

[eaufraiche703]

i've meditated since college decades ago - started w/ the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi transcendental meditation classes.

If you practice, Danko, you'll eventually learn to slip into a different level of consciousness where you won't notice thoughts... it's a marvelous floaty state. Least that's my experience. Anybody else on this?

Just let thoughts float by... acknowledge (yes..... the mole......) and go back to your mantra.

Caroveggie, the link looks interesting...!

[Caroveggie]

Yes, I would highly recommend that website. They have courses online and also study centers. I've been to the Berkeley one a couple times but usually I just take the online courses because I'm in SF. I've found those courses very valuable, but it's been a gradual process for me (it's self-directed in that what you put in is what you get out regarding exercises, etc.) Right now I'm taking a break from the courses because I'm doing this other memory course, incidentally because I want to improve my concentration and focus for the meditative type exercises. I plan to take up one of their courses again in their next round.

[Danko]

Guys, invaluable advice and a great link Carol!

I think it is interesting that the Western medical World is alos embracing the contribution meditation can make to mental and physical wellbeing. Conditions with a psychosomatic element, like hypertension, psoriasis, bowel disorders, etc seem most responsive from what I have read.

I am from a working class area of England which is very traditional. You ca imagine the reaction of my pals when I told them I meditated. Yet, every one of them is intrigued and I expect a few of them to take it up.

Thanks again for your help!

[Reikiman]

Forgive me for impinging on you a little more, but if you could help with any of the following, that would be great!

1. It seems rom what I have read thus far that the ultimate aim is to be able to let all thoughts drift across the mind without being caught up in them, in everyday life. If this is so, how do we know which thoughts to act on? Using an example that happened a little earlier, I noticed a mole on my torso that will need to be looked at. If I let that thought go, it will have passed through without me acting on it and I will do nothing in response.
Is my misunderstanding that by 'ackonwledging' the thought, I can act on it without ruminating?

2. Letting thoughts pass seems to me at this stage of my practice (limited as it is!) that by being an 'external observer' of thoughts is almost to have to let go of personality and self-image and try and be a 'blank canvas'. Am I wrong?

I know these Qs might be a little deep and require a long answer but, if you are minded to reply, please, please do not feel obligated to write lengthy responses. Literally anything to clarify my own thoughts, however

Hi again Danko.

These are really good questions- and yes, they will take some time to respond to so forgive the wall of text that is about to be written

Let me respond to your first post about 'dreaming' and staying awake before I get into the meat of this. Your 'problem' is not uncommon- and most people that seriously meditate face this issue. Actually, the lotus postion- the one where you sit with your legs twisted up like a pretzel - was originally developed 'way back when' for meditation because Yogis would fall asleep during their practice and this posture kept them from falling over while they were asleep. So don't worry about it. It is what it is.

As to your first question about which thoughts to act upon, that is where mindfulness comes in. Thich Nhat Hanh, in my opinion, is far and away the best writer and teacher on this principle. You will just intuitively 'know' what to act upon and what to let go. The more you practice, the more you can let go of things. Very little of what we ruminate on is relevant or important- and over time you can just 'be' and let go of things. I am to the point where I have very few possessions and live a frugal, debt- free lifestyle. The 'stuff' we accumulate are attachments that we make- and to truly 'be' you need to minimize 'attachments'. This is the hardest topic to explain- and since it goes to your second question I will leave the explanation for the next paragraph. Finishing up on this topic, another book you may want to read that will help with your questions about where our thoughts and where 'we' fit in the universe is the Tao Te Ching. If you get a copy of this, get one where the author provides an explanation of the text to get started. There are lots of these out there, from a hundred pages or so to a few hundred- but go with something more 'basic'. I would recommend the one by Derek Lin as a starting point. Also, Lama Surya Das is a great author. He is a jewish guy from New York City that has commited to the Buddhist lifestyle, so his insights are not only funny, but are written in 'plain English' so the barrier that many of the texts face with authors that have English as a second language are overcome.

As to your second question, TominTN said it very well. To truly 'be', you have to be a blank canvas. Yes, you have to lose your attachment to personality and self-image, because there is no you. The terms 'self image' and 'personality' are labels- and as such, are attachments that one needs to let go of. Guess what I am trying to say is 'Don't worry- be happy'- or more specifically, 'Don't worry- BE'. I appreciate that this is a tough concept to grasp- even though you really don't want to grasp it, but rather observe it and let it go The more one is attached to 'stuff' and 'labels' and preconceptions and ego, the more difficult it is to let go and just be. As difficult as it may be to grasp, the principle of 'BEing' is to let go of everything- it is all illusion anyways.

As I said before, these concepts are VERY difficult to explain- and cannot be given the time they deserve in a short thread in this forum. That is why I have recommended these authors to you. In their books, they expound on the concepts so they are more easily assimilated. The time you invest in their writings will change your life in a profound way- and I cannot recommend them highly enough

[Danko]

Reikiman - a fantastic reply, thanks for spending the btime putting together such a detailed response.

On the point of knowing which thoughts to act on intuitively, I think that the reason why I am a bit frightened, I suppose, of letting go of thinking through decisions is that I have become so used to doing it, and it actually forms part of my OCD. I strongly belive that I am taking the right path with mindfulness, though. It is strange but as I approach my 32nd birthday, I don't feel that I developed at all as a person in my 20s. It is though the whole decade was spent worrying (mainly about things that never came to pass) and my personal growth was stymied as a result. I feel that by being mindful, I will be able to experience every moment of life much more and 'live' more within a given time period. I will definitely read the authors you have listed and thanks for pointing me in their direction.

The idea about self-image was also one that I found frighteneing. I was browsing a Jack Kornfield book and he said that the ultimate aim is no self-image. I was woried that this would lead to a feeling of being 'rudderless' but, I think the Tao Te Ching and commentaries by modern writers will help me to see where I 'fit'.

Thanks again for your input on'being' in everyday life. I think I might be over-analysing here and coming to a wrong conclusion, but I struggled with the concept of letting every thought go. To me, to do so means ATTACHMENT to the idea of letting things go, swhich I saw as paradoxical. It also opened up the possibility that there may be other 'core' or 'basic' thoughts, principles or ideas that need to be hung on to, which could have led me back to a state where the content of my thoughts becomes important again.

But, as you have said that this idea ITSELF needs to be let go, this seems to have resolved that paradox. I now see it not as an idea to become attached to, but as an intuitional knowing of which thoughts are worth responding to.

Even though I am only around 3 months into this journey, my folks have commented that I am different. I am a lot calmer, more able to shrug my shoulders at things that would once have troubled me and OCD impulses are more infrequent and have a lot less hold over me than before.

If any reader here is troubled with OCD and other anxiety disorders I really would recommend meditation as an approach to try. I had CBT and have been on medication for 9 years. The CBT didn't work (I found that to simply challenge surface thoughts when there was a deep emotional rection such as fear, anxiety, depression) didn't work. The book that got me interested in meditation was 'The Mindful WAy Through Depression' by Mark Williams et al. Even though it is not specifically for OCD, the way in which the authors describe becoming trapped up in rumination let to many a silent nod of agreement from me when I was reading, more so than any other book.

I am now at a stage where I want to embrace mindfulness fully as I have seen the improvments it has made in one area of my life. The authors you have pointed me to, Reikiman, will help me with this, and I cannot thank you enough for your help.

[Danko]

Eileen, thanks for your recommendations, I will give them a look up. I am becoming a little bit frustrated with Kabat-Zinn. He seems to talk around subjects a great deal without ever digging down into the crux of what he is talking about!

[Jan Tz]

I've always liked Eknath Easwaran's books. Very solid.

[Danko]

LOL!!

If Krishnamurti can help people be 'in the moment' with tax returns, he sounds great to me!

Thanks again, speak to you again on this Forum!

[glook]

I wish I meditated more, but I do practice mindfulness.

Books:

1) Wherever you go, there you are: Jon Kabat-Zinn
2) Breathe! You are alive! Thich Nhat Hanh (others as well)
3) Be an island: Ayya Khema

These three authors and practices are my favorites. I listen to Zencast podcast a lot.

I wish I meditated more.