Discussion Board

I've used probiotics a couple of different times, both after long bouts of heavy duty antibiotics. (Once for strep throat and once for pneumonia, and both required two rounds of antibiotics each.) I don't remember exact brands, but the first probiotics were from a refrigerated case at the local natural foods co-op, and the second time was from one of those supplement/vitamin places you find in shopping malls. The co-op ones seemed to get my innards back on track very quickly; the mall ones didn't seem to make much difference, but everything returned to normal within a couple weeks anyhow.

Dr. McDougall discusses probiotics on pp. 121-124 of his latest book, Digestive Tune-Up. I recommend the whole book.

To try to get rid of the last bit of a skin infection, a dermatologist prescribed an antibiotic, for me, for about two months.

At the end of that course, I began taking a probiotic capsule daily. (I no longer have the bottles, so I can't tell you which strains were included.) The only difference I noticed was that stools were larger and more consistent -- presumably as a result of more bacteria operating in the gut, as it should be.

From my own experience and from what Dr. McDougall has said, there don't seem to be any bad side effects, taken in a reasonable dosage. So, you might try probiotics. But be sure to see Dr. McDougall's list in the book. He suggests certain types for some conditions but not for others.

If salt doesn't bother you, you can conjure up probiotics from the air on your own by making fermented veggies.

You can make either saurkraut, fermented stuff like kimchi or other types fermented veggie condiments, or even dill pickles. I've made them all, and find the kimchi really the easiest to make and the one I like the best.

You can ferment it in several days, depending on the weather, etc., and then put it into jars and keep it refrigerated for months. Putting a little kimchi along the side of rice dishes, on salads, etc., or even just sipping some of the salty brine here and there loads you up with natural probiotics of several species.

If you have a problem with salt, however...no good. I plan to make more soy yogurt (haven't doen for a while), and I hear you can buy kefir grains and make kefir from coconut milk...which I plan to do SOMEDAY...when I've got the time to fiddle with all of that. For now, though, I just keep the kimchi going and just have that every two or three days.

Kimchi is the Korean form of saurkraut...I like it much better.

You can take any assortment of veggies...I like nappa cabbage, finely sliced carrots, onions, garlic, stuff like that...you can vary it, and then add spices if you like (I like it pretty hot), and then keep those veggies submerged in a brine (I've got specific measures at home if anybody's interested in that) for a couple of weeks or so...then divide that out into canning jars (but don't can or seal the lids...you'd kill the buggies you grew in there) and screw on the lids and keep them in the fridge...they continue to ferment in there, but more slowly.

Koreans eat kimchi with different stir-frys and such...like Japanese eat various pickled veggies, pickled ginger and all of that with their recipes.

I like kimchi because it's easy to make, versatile...it even tastes good on salad...and just pretty quick and easy. I've made the big fermented deli dill pickles and for me those were very tricky to get right...I had about a 50% success/failure rate with those doggone things. Expensive to buy 4 pounds of pickling cucumbers and then have them all go bad...they were good when they turned out, but I never knew when they would and when they'd get yuckie and gross. Saurkraut is okay, but I personally don't like the stuff that much. I bought a book called Wild Fermentation...written by a fellow who is associated with that Weston Price meat-loving organization that so many people here don't like (me neither, but I do like the book)--I really like this book because it has recipes that are very user friendly, cheap to do, and mostly kind of crude, the way the early people in cold climates had to preserve veggies before other methods were used. So, it's kinda like...get yourself a crock or plastic bucket, a plate, a clean rock...buy some pure sea salt, mix it all up together and ferment away!!!

I like the kimchi the best and pretty much have settled into having that around most of the time.

Probiotics are excellent for digestive health. pretty much everyone has taken antibiotics at one time or another in their life and we need probiotics for our digestive system to recover from this.

If you don't want to purchase probiotics the easiest way to make them at home is to make rejuvelac.

1/2 c. soft weat or rye berries
purified water

1. soak the grains overnight in a half gallon jar of water
2. the next morning, drain and rinse the grains.
3. sprout the grains for 2 days, rinsing and draining twice a day. On the second day fill the jar with pruified water and allow to ferment for 36-48 hours, or until the desired tartness is achieved. Strain the grains out of the fermented water and you have rejuvelac.

Store in refrigerator for up to five days.

This is an excellent probiotic beverage. If you don't like the taste you can add a celestial seasonings tea in your glass for flavor.

Which strains of bacteria does the rejuvelac contain?

Well the rejuvelac recipe plus Burgess' question about which strains were known to be present there got me to thinking more about this...

...so I stumbled around a minute or two on the net and found this site, which has a cabbage-made rejuvelac that sounds even easier than the wheat/rye one (plus...gluten free to boot!)--also...has no salt necessary, and the problem with the kimchi, saurkraut or pickles is that they are so salty...

so I thought this sounded cheap, easy, salt-free, and thought I'd share...I plan to try this one of these days myself.

http://www.nourished.com.au/articles/ca ... lac-recipe

Oh...this doesn't answer Burgess' question about exactly which microbes are present...however, it's my own feeling that catching wild microbes would be healthier than purchasing "lab" microbes in the form of pills, yogurts made from starter batches, etc....just a groundhog(g) hunch there, for whatever that's worth !

and more...

Some information about REJUVELAC follows:

"Rejuvelac is rich in Lactobacilli, yeast and Aspergillus oryzae mold producing lactic acid, carbon dioxide [CO2], some Vit. B complex and enzymes among other natural compounds. The beverage aids digestion mainly due to enzyme activity.

"Rejuvelac is a name given to a natural fermented grain and water drink. The beverage was extensively used by the late Dr. Ann Wigmore at Hypocrites Health Institutes situated in the US. Although the process for culturing rejuvelac is similar to beer and Kvass of Russia, including other culture-grain beverages, on the other hand the latter contain appreciable amounts of alcohol. Whereas rejuvelac should contain very small amount of alcohol. The cereal grains are usually sprouted, water added and the mixtures is left to ferment at room temperature for a few days, depending on temperature. The temperature during fermentation should be between 15 - 25° C, 20° C being optimum [60-80° F, 70° F optimum].

"The ferment [rejuvelac] is strained from the grains and consumed fresh. The process is also similar to making sourdough bread starter. In fact, the spent grains may be used for preparing a sourdough starter when added to flour and water and left to ferment for a few days in a covered container.

"This natural fermentation is mainly due to the native microflora found on the grains' hulls, which acidify and carbonate the medium. The finished rejuvelac has a clean sour taste with slight effervescence.

"Rejuvelac can be prepared from any cereal grains, including wheat, rye, oats, barley, unhulled millet, brown rice [any whole grain rice], and raw unhulled buckwheat. Freshly soaked grains can be used, or sprouted or sprouted then ground to a mash. Rejuvelac may also be prepared with freshly ground mash by pounded soaked cereal grains in a Mortar and Pestle or blended in a food processor. I will mainly explain the sprouted grain process here including some variations. "

This rejuvelac information is from the website: "Dom's non-dairy milk and Rejuvelac in-site":

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/vegmilk.html#rejuvelac
----------------------------------------
For those with further interest on the subject on fermentation and/or "making your own fermented/or natural food products at home", also on the website, is information about:

*SEED, NUT AND SOY MILK
*Mortar & Pestle Method for Preparing Seed & Nut Milk
*Electric Blender Method For Making Seed & Nut Milk
*Soy Milk Recipe
*Gomashio
*Making kefir
*Soy Milk Yogurt and Soy Milk Kefir
*Seed & Nut Cheese
*Seed & Nut Yogurt Recipe [vegan]

LINKS on the website to (and more):
1. How to prepare cultured-vegetables with Kefir Grains --- the natural mother-culture
2. Making Kefir
3. Culture-Foods of Asia Which includes this introduction:

A brief intro to my intro to culture-foods of Asia

"During July of 1982, one would have found me traveling through Java, Indonesia with a desire to experience traditional Tempeh prepared among the nativity of its tad-environment. During these travels, many cherished experiences were realized through being exposed to the culture-products produced by local Javanese Culture-food Masters. In fact, it is in this spirit of adventure, and through observation and pro-exploration, is the essence of which I try to reflect in this web page. The culture-products explained here, include traditional culture-foods of Indonesia, Japan, China and Korea, which I have provided some basic information of such culture-products, including preparation. References on how some of these culture-products are consumed are also discussed in some detail. Enjoy!"

Thanks, Clary...very interesting-lookin' site!!!

I have heard of making kefir from coconut milk, and haven't had the time to look into this yet, but will pursue that info one of these days...I noticed on the site you linked they do have water kefir and grape juice kefir. Sounds interesting!

One note along these lines to the other gluten-free people besides myself...one thing I found out last winter was that miso, which I always bought from an international store--all the really great Asian varieites, anyway, using miso is taking a chance for gluten free people, because it's just about impossible to find out whether the original koji was cultured on barely grains or not. Once I found this out, I realized that in my 2001 gluten "trial," one of the hidden sources of gluten remaining, besides licking envelop flaps, washing my face with wheat germ oil scrub stuff, and not knowing about some things potentially gluten-containing...miso was a regular part of my diet, back then... ...so, I even wanted to MAKE my own miso (takes months to years), but unless you culture your own koji...you're taking a chance whenever you consume miso if you are one who cannot tolerate gluten.

I do plan to start fiddling around with kefir grains...one of these days!

Just a probiotic update...I started the "cabbage rejuvelac" recipe I'd found and linked above last night.

It should be fizzy by Sunday...according to the recipe I'd linked to. Of course, it's pretty cold now and we are heating with wood...so our house temp varies greatly...from hot when we're attentive to the fire, to pretty cold when we've got it banked and smoldering on its own for several hours at a time...so that might throw off the timing of the stuff...but hopefully it won't ruin my batch.

So I'll let y'all know next week if the stuff is any good or not...I hope it works, because according to the article, if that info is correct...rejuvelac attracts more species of probiotics than yogurt and such does, and the more varieties of bugs you get, I think the better off your gut is.

The better off your gut is, the better your overall health, etc. So...I'm keeping my paws crossed for a good batch of cabbage rejuvelac.

By the way...these folks responsible for the recipe...I've read some of their writings and such...they are a hated organization by most vegans, as they advocate the use of organic meats, raw dairy products, etc., and basically they do not like grains. Well...I read anybody and everybody and then make up my own mind...and I have to say, that however wrong I feel about thesse people and cholesterol, fat, animal protein (although I think their points about homogenization of dairy increasing availability and problems from casein and lactose are probably right--still, though, it's easier just to avoid dairy entirely ), they are undeniable experts in attracting and making use of wild microbes flying around us...utilizing simple "farming," if you will, techniques of that FREE health benefit right here under our noses.

So...just in case anyone jumps at who put the recipe online...there's always some good found among the opposing camps, if you just seek it out .

Hello again...

Well it's Monday morning ( yawn) already and if you're following this probiotic discussion, you might remember I'd linked to a simple, salt-free cabbage "rejuvelac" recipe last week.

Well I tried that stuff and am happy to report it worked out quite well...I took 3 cups of loosely packed cabbage, added some spring water to that (was it 2 cups???? can't remmeber now but it's in the recipe in the link from last week) and threw them into the blender. I put the flourescent green stuff--looking like something that you might have pulled from underneath a clogged lawnmower -- into a big canning jar, set a cloth over top and held that in place with a rubber band. I set it on a very high book shelf, hoping it would stay warm enough up there (has to be sitting for 3 days between 66-77 degrees). Sunday evening, I got the stuff down to see if it was ready.

Well, the bright green "lawnmower cloggers" were floating above, loaded with bubbles galore, and the liquid underneath did look a lot like yogurt "whey," as the recipe indicated. It smelled exactly like saurkraut (not my favorite thing...but the smell was just so right on for fresh, home-fermented saurkraut...I mean, it would've actually smelled GOOD to someone who likes saurkraut )--

So I strained off the liquid and tasted it...YEP...just as the recipe said, it DID taste like weak carbonated water with the taste of yogurt whey added to it. I've been sipping on it, feeling that there must be plenty of assorted species of lactobacillus fizzin' away in there...and intend to keep making this and fillin' up on it for several weeks. These buggers, in addition to being our intestinal friends, supposedly also kill off cold and flu viruses, compete with nasty bacteria, and just help our intestines figure out right from wrong, so to speak.

I took 1/4 cup of this cabbage rejuvelac, as the recipe instructed, and added that to another 3 cups cabbage plus 1 1/2 cup water through the blender--that's now sitting on the high book shelf awaiting a 24 hour brewing period, at which time I'll repeat that process and continue on a daily legacy of little bugs growing in their cabbage patch to go into groundhog(g)'s gut for future happy good times in there!

Just wanted to report on the progress...this is easy, kinda fun (we had company and it came down from the bookshelf for a quick visit with our guests...created much conversation), very cheap, and I'm sure a much better variety and quality of fresh, active probiotics than you could ever buy anywhere.

I've started making and drinking Kombucha tea. I've only made one batch so far and it didn't last very long, I have 2 batches fermenting at the moment so once I get to the point where I can drink it everyday, I'll keep you all posted on how it works as a probiotic. If anyone knows about Kombucha, I'd love to find a 'booch buddy'. Also, down the road, I'll be more than happy to hook anyone up with a Kombucha culture if you're interested.