Discussion Board

I am trying to convert to a vegatarian and having problems with fatigue. I tried for several months but the fatigue still continued and I am slowly slipping into my old food habits.

I eat organic veggies (variety of organic lettuces, broccoli, cucumbers, tomatoes, onions, garlic, carrots, avocado, etc.), organic fruits, rice, beans, legumes, and nuts. Also, I take an organic multivitamin, drink organic green drinks (Dr. Schulze's Superfoods, and New Chapter Berry Greens), Omega 3-6-9, among others.

I am a fairly healthy person. Recently had a physical that included blood work so everything is fine from that standpoint. What am I missing?

How much are you eating? Eating McDougall you should always eat until you are satisfied. Don't worry about calories...eat all you want. Also, do you eat any starches such as brown rice, barley, potatoes??? The starches are what seem to give me boundless energy and keep me full. I just looked back at your post and saw that you do include rice...my bad. I'm no expert by any means, but the starches may be key.

It seems unlikely that the fatigue is from a healthy diet. So, one thing to check is whether you are getting enough calories. As LJ said, one fairly common cause of fatigue is simply too few calories. How about posting some more specific examples of a typical day's food?

If you are taking Dr. Schulze's you are probably drinking a fair amount of juice unless you're able to tolerate the taste without it. It's possible that you are having blood suger spikes especially if you have previously been eating a higher fat diet. On a healthy diet, all that supplementation is not really necessary. (Consider B12, but no rush on that.)

And of course, there's always non-nutritional reasons for fatigue: poor sleep, increased exercise, not enough exercise, stress, etc.

It seems highly unlikely that your problem is caused by lack of meat. Hope you are successful in figuring it out.

It is hard to determine exact causes of fatigue but it can be caused by many factors.

Not drinking enough water, juice is not a substitute, high water content foods are not a substitute either.

Drinking too much juice, eating too much fruit. When fruit is juiced the fiber and protein is removed which can spike blood sugar levels and then lead to fatigue hours later. I wouldn't drink much juice. In smoothies use frozen fruits and water, no juice.

Limit your sweet fruit intake. This can also cause rises and falls in blood sugar levels.

Fatigue can also be caused by a certain level of detox from a meat and dairy diet. When I finally went from the SAD diet to an extremely healthy vegan diet with a high level of vegetables, fruits, grains etc.. I experienced a period of light headedness, fatigue, mild nausea, difficulty concentrating etc... This can last anywhere from 3-6 weeks usually, reverting back to old eating habits will stop it but when you resume your healthy eating habits it will return.

If your fatigue is relieved by reverting to old eating habits it is probably being caused by detoxing. The best way to slow this is to eat brown rice, potatoes with skin and other heavier grains, potatoes or legumes to slow the detox. Detoxing is not experienced by everyone but it does happen in a certain number of people. It is usually something you just have to get through, reverting to old eating habits usually prolongs its duration. When you get through it you will feel better than you ever have. This is one of the most difficult things I see in people I consult with.



Make sure you are sleeping 7-8 hours a night. DO NOT sleep more than 8 hours as that can and will cause fatigue.

Get in some amount of exercise at least 3-4 times per week. This will help increase energy levels.

Eat until you are satisfied, also it is best to eat 6 meals a day if you are experiencing fatigue, especially afternoon fatigue.

Be sure that you are not consuming any refined sugars. No soda pop or condiments, breads or canned foods with high fructose corn syrup, no artificial sweeteners.

These are some of the most common causes of fatigue. Hopefully it will help you. Hang in there, you are doing a good thing by changing to a healthy diet and you will reap the benefits of that choice for the rest of your life so don't give up.

Every time I see this type statement I just want to bawl. Well right now I just want to bawl anyway. That just IS NOT TRUE for everyone. I have been McD'ing for many years (started McDougall Plan in 1989). As long as I was at a job that had me walking 48 hours per week (not aerobically at all, just the constant stop and start and being on one's feet of waitressing) I was within 10 lbs of my normal healthy weight. When I had to trade that for a desk job, EVEN THOUGH I joined a gym and began working out to try and offset the exercise loss, I gained and gained. I am now up FIFTY POUNDS and becoming more and more obese by the day.

And I eat the McDougall Plan!!!!!!!! I LOVE the McDougall plan, love the no-fat whole foods and I do not have any desire to CHEAT and I DON'T!!!!!!!!!! So it obviously does NOT work for everybody and I am so sick and tired of looking in the mirror and seeing this hideous obese woman that I have now become. I still do not recognize it as me. I have NO clothes to wear because everything in my closet is a size 10 or 12, except a few fattyblob tent outfits I have bought or been given the past few months.

Grrr. I honestly do not know what else to do. I am desperate.

Thanks,
Tricia

Your situation is extraordinary. Would you give us some examples? For instance what did you eat and approximately how much during the last three meals?

Here is a sample for me, breakfast:
- 2 c baked mashed potatoes with okra and flavorings (garlic, etc.)
- 1.5 c steamed vegs (collard greens and mushrooms).
- 1.5 c fruit (orange, frozen blackberries)
- ketchup on potatoes
- water to drink

All my meals are similar to that one. I drink only tea or water. I eat nothing between meals (for simplicity's sake), but I eat three big meals.

I have to agree heartily with Heart4Animals on this concept. As I posted somewhere in the past week, I did not have weight gain but lost a tremendous amount with MWL ten years ago, following it as advertised with lots of starches and working out an hour a day. As I reached my late 40s, however, it has just not worked as well. I suspect my metabolism has slowed naturally and, out of frustration, I've reached for starches--comfort food-- which are just too calorie-dense. I have even had trouble with Dr. Fuhrman's Eat to Live which is so many fewer starches. I follow each meticulously but the weight is not coming off. I have finally returned to McD MWL b/c I am happier with the starches. But I think the eat all you want advice is not the blanket authorisation a lot of people seem to think. A calorie is a calorie is a calorie; law of physics. More calories in than out is weight gain and--no matter how passionately I don't want to believe it when I'm happily chomping on a good McD MWL-type meal--weight loss requires burning more calories than what you're taking in. There is no other way around it.

Are you desperate enough to build up to walking a minimum of 60 brisk minutes, 7 days a week? Or about 25 miles per week.

I know you went to a gym initially after switching jobs, but I've always been a believer in continuous, measureable movement. Too much time in the gyms is spent in non-action and using small muscles, such as the arms. Arms burn few calories compared to the legs. In many exercise routines only about 10 minutes or less of real full leg movement is included per hour in the gym.
Miles walking are much more measureable.

If one is desperate, they can do 60 minutes or more each day. It can be made to fit in to almost everyone's day either in a solid time space or in several bits.
I doubt it will make a quick reversal of your 50 pounds, but if you are willing to wait for 50 to 100 weeks, I'd think you could see a reversal of a good portion of that excess.
At the very least, I'm certain you could eliminate further gain.

Whats the alternative?

Breakfast every day is big bowl of oatmeal (plain, sweetened w/ stevia) and a banana.

Lunch is usually either a bag of brussel sprouts, or a couple baked potatoes w/ ketchup, or leftover soup from the night before's dinner.

Dinner is frequently a huge bowl of creamy veggie soup made from McD Quick and Easy cookbook (this is just vegetable stock and non-starch veggies such as cauliflower, broccoli, carrots, zucchini, onion, celery, etc) and herbs, to which I sometimes add mushrooms as well as a starch such as some beans or brown rice. Rarely, I will make (FF) cornbread to eat w /the soup instead of adding a starch TO the soup.

I used to eat some air popped corn or an apple or a mess of berries between meals but I have stopped doing that since the weight gain, but it hasn't seemed to help. When I was thin and McD'ing I also used to eat a lot of dinners that contained mostly starch (beans and rice or beans and cornbread) but similiarly I gave them up to try and stop the weight gain, but months have now passed and it hasn't made a difference, either.

At first when this happened, I thought it was because I ate more starch than the average McDougaller, and w/o the massive exercise I couldn't process it. But now I know that can't be true, because I have cut out much of the starch and am still gaining. I think I probably do eat larger portions of food than most people in this world, I always have been a huge eater though. Oh one more thing - I quit a 29 year smoking habit back in May and of course I am sure that too has contributed to this fat but I still don't see why I should have to be obese considering that I McD.

Thanks,
Tricia

I am no specialist in exercise studies or much else that perplexes us (although I certainly have been on too many diets in life and still think McD is the best and makes most sense) but about 5 years ago I seem to recall some reputable medical establishment came out with what seemed discouraging data on exercise and weight gain/loss that seems to make perfect sense now. They said that 6o min (which is what I aim for each day in a sustained manner) was sufficient only for weight maintenance but 90 min of moderate to strenuous exercise was required for weight loss.

I can only speak for myself but I think I have been lured into thinking that simply a little exercise the days I could not fit in my 60 min intense walk would do it. Since I'm in a chair much of the time, I'm not getting all the exercise I'd like to complement the 60 min intense so probably 90 is what it's going to take to make a really big difference.

Seems that lots of the reports, etc. on exercise etc relate to minimum levels of health versus weight loss. Burning calories is HARD--no matter how you do it. We have to burn 3500 calories to lose a pound. That's not the same as walking a bit to get our blood flowing, etc. I wish it were easier but I suspect this is why it's so discouraging for many of us--and pretty bloody complicated.

But, I'm only interpreting what I think I'm hearing.

I think you have it right. I think the "majority" of folks even on the McDougall boards have fallen prey to thinking a trip to the gym 3 or 4 times a week is exercise that will drop pounds.
Steady "industrial stength" movement in a constant direction is about the only thing I believe will let you know if you are doing enough. Not videos in the living room, not station to station in the gym.
No, simple physics........moving a mass so many miles in distance and up so many feet in elevation is the only true criteria.
For the lucky, they can do it with 30 minutes. Most others need 60 minutes and as we know, life can be harsh, some folks need to face up to the fact they need 90 minutes each and every day to actually lose rather than maintain.
But I think it can be said, that at some level, every person will indeed lose.
I do well over 60 min. average per day. It takes time. More than most are willing to spend.
BTW, you'd better like what you do, because on those cold days, and rainy days, you aren't gonna feel like it even if you normally like it.
Make that, "you'd better love it".

Alternatively, a person could get a job that had movement as part of its duties. Not too many jobs have that kind of movement.
Bicycle messenger? Utility meter reader?

Some times genetics are cruel. I have become more and more convinced from reading posts here, that some people may need 90 minutes to maintain and perhaps 2 hours daily to lose.
I'm so sorry that is the case, but all the wishing and hoping won't change it.
I don't think its many people, but there are some facing that reality.

Good luck.........to all in these areas.
My advice in whatever you choose, is to build the mileage up slowly.
Abrupt increases in physical activity often end up in injuries which compound the problem. Slow and steady increases are especially critical in anyone over 40.

Am I understanding this correctly? You have gained 50 pounds in the last few months? This after years of successfully McDougalling? That's alarming - as in get yourself to a doctor for a physical. And maybe email Dr. McDougall as well.

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

That may be true, I am not sure if I have the self discipline to do it consistantly. There are days I feel desperate enough to exercise till my butt falls off, but I know that I would on other less motivated days convince myself that I might as well just live the rest of my life as a fat granny. When exercising was my job, I had no choice and it certainly didn't feel like exercising, it was just how I made my living.

I had all kinds of self-discipline when I was bulimic LOL But that was decades ago. I truly am a different person now. Which is basically a good thing in most ways!

My point though really is this: that just doing the McDougall Plan is not enough for everyone. Some people, and I am obviously not the only one, have to do massive amounts of exercise in addition to eating the plan, in order to lose (or even maintain) a healthy weight.

Thanks,
Tricia

Exactly! And that is what works for me. I was a waitress - on my feet walking for 48 hours each week (NOT aerobically, simply being up walking and active, stop and start, also lots of arm exercise, filling ice bins, reaching for glasses off top shelf, carrying trays) and during the years I waitressed I stayed effortlessly weight proportionate, as long as I McDougalled.



I really think our bodies were designed more for extended non-aerobic activities (more similar to what I described above - like working in the fields harvesting would be, you know?) than being sedentary for 22 hours of the day and then pushing the body to the ultimate max for 1 or 2. I know that 'going to the gym' works for some people but to me the healthiest thing is just being a more active person over-all. I don't know what the answer is though, because of course we can't all be waitresses or meter readers or work in the orange grove, or whatever. Heck I can't even be a waitress anymore - which is why I'm now fat LOL

Thanks,
Tricia

To gain so much weight so quickly is more than not just enough exercise.
I would get a check up if I were you, just to rule out any thyroid problems.

As a long time McDougaller, I know that as I've slowed down and aged, I've not needed the same amount of calories.
I can get by with a lot less food than when I was younger.

I eat many more veggies, and hardly any starches or fruits.
I speedwalk so I do a LOT of sweating when I excercise.
If I did not excercise, I would be depressed because of my sit-down job.
(I sit in front of this &%$# computer all day.)
My walks are my "happy time."

I guess, like me, you need to adapt your diet to your lifestyle and your age.
Calories do count, especially if you are unable to burn them.

BTW, I've picked apples with the official farm workers, and I can vouch that they pick aerobically! Faster than any city-slicker!