Is B12 the only nutrient Issue?

[berniek]

Tuesday will be my three year anniversary of becoming a vegan. I’ve followed the “rules” that I’ve learned from books by Dr. McDougall, Dr. Esselstyn the other gurus and promoters of this life style and overall I’m happy about my results.

The “party line” is that the only nutrient shortage that I have to be concerned with is B12, but only after several years. I’m now 78 ½ years old and when things don’t feel “right” I start looking for reasons. As of late, I’ve been tired even though I get plenty of sleep at night. I’ve found sources that talk about thyroid issues that don’t show up in routine testing. For instance I’ve read that many raw vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, kale and a few others should be cooked because they contain a chemical called goitrogen that when eaten, raw, as I eat them, can block thyroid hormone production. There is no mention of cooked vs. raw in anything that I’ve read to date.

Most doctors that I know Poo-Poo the vegan diet so they probably can’t help and Dr. Campbell says that the third highest causes of death in the U.S. are doctor visits and I've learned that the typical doctor, regardless of his specialty, has very little to contribute when it comes to vegan foods.

I’m looking for some words of wisdom regarding my concerns and would very much appreciate any input. Thank you.

[colonyofcells]

Based on multiple generations of vegans, b12 seems to be the only micronutrient missing in a vegan diet. If people eat their own stools like some animals, can also easily get b12 from own stools. I believe the stools of a vegan can be considered a vegan food too (altho will probably eat some bacteria). It would also be good to read up on vegan nutrition like books by vegan nutritionists. There is an update on the Becoming Vegan (comprehensive edition) book by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina. The Express edition is a shorter version for non professionals. Also one for seniors Never Too Late To Go Vegan by Virginia Messina (Jan 2014). Veganhealth org website is very useful and is run by Jack Norris (author of Vegan For Life). Can also post questions to nutritionist Jeff.

[eXtremE]

Don't you have at least 3 years tho after adopting a strict PB diet before you even have to worry about a possible b12 deficiency? What if you just have your b12 tested on a regular basis. If it is ok, do you still need the supplement?

[colonyofcells]

I don't konw how long reserves of b12 can last. I heard babies have 0 reserves of vitamin b12. Symptoms of b12 deficiency can come fast and brain can be damaged so unless testing for b12 deficiency every day, I would just take a b12 sublingual tablet every day just to be sure. Low levels of b12 found in lactovegetarians of India or poor people who eat very little animal products can lead to higher incidence of brain diseases.

[Emily]

It was unclear to me (maybe I didn't read carefully enough) if you've been supplementing B12. If you haven't, and you haven't been tested for deficiency, you should definitely start supplementing now. We can store B12 for several years, but from what I hear, many seniors have trouble with absorption of B12 and become deficient even as meat eaters. So if you haven't been supplementing, and it's been years, that could definitely be an issue. Your B12 could have started out low even before you became a vegan.

We make our own vitamin D by exposure of skin to the sun, but if you are not getting sun exposure, or always wear sunscreen, you could be deficient without a supplemental source. There is not a whole lot of vitamin D in food, but many of those eating the standard American diet get supplemental vitamin D from the vitamin D added to milk, so they have a lower risk of deficiency than those consuming no supplemental vitamin D. If you don't get sun exposure or supplemental vitamin D, that is a possible deficiency.

I'm fairly sure the things above are safe to say and are pretty well established. But I am not a medical doctor or nutritionist (not that I trust a whole lot of nutritionists when it comes to diet because from what I've seen, they jump on dietary bandwagons that have little evidence to support them, though I do trust JeffN).

It's true that seeing doctors can lead to unnecessary medical care, but if you're experiencing a problem, it would be responsible to seek medical care to make sure you don't have a serious issue, provided you've ruled out whatever is obvious (I'm assuming you're posting here to rule out the obvious). The truth is, if you see a doctor, you have no need to discuss your diet. Chances are, the doctors won't even ask you about it. Many don't consider diet at all. At your age, I'm pretty sure a test for B12 deficiency is pretty routine.

[eXtremE]

The problem I have with supplementation is they all seem to drive my CNS crazy, esp. the B vitamins and vit. C. I have severe anxiety. I have experimented with all the B vitamins individually and together in a multivitamin and they all rev my CNS up for some strange reason, causing me more panic and anxiety so IDK. I am still eating a tiny amount of animal protein every other day but much less than even Pritikin was eating so I think I might be in trouble when it comes to my B12. I see my doc again in 2 months. My blood is tested twice per year and they check for B12 and it looks like I was in the middle from some past B12 testing even when I was eating the one SAD meals daily.

Range = 232-1132 pg/ml
Some past results = 479, 481, 544, 504, 596

[colonyofcells]

I hate most of the sweet b12 supplements in the market. Vegan websites might have better quality b12 supplements that don't have strange ingredients. Maybe go thru the b12 tablets in iherb com, vitacost, veganessentials, etc. to look for b12 supplements with less suspicious ingredients. It is also possible to get b12 injections which is the sure way to get b12. There are 3 forms of b12 tablets easily found in the marketplace : cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.

[eXtremE]

Ok, thanks!

[MikeInFL]

Does your blood test check your CoQ10 levels? CoQ10 is the 'carberator' of the cells that make energy- it facilitates the transformation of fats and sugars into energy inside the mitochondria. As you age your levels of Coq10 in your cells reduce to the point that at age 80 your CoQ10 levels are 50-80% less thatn at age 25. Some prescription drugs may also lower CoQ10 levels too, like statins, making levels very low.

[f1jim]

It would be prudent for anyone that has eaten vegan to get their B12 measured. Probably more so for anyone elderly. I went for over 5 years eating this way before my B12 levels dropped into the low range. I was bad about taking the B12 supplements so it wasn't a surprise when I got a test back with a B1`2 level around 226. That prompted me to be more routine about consuming the B12. I test it every year anyway.
f1jim

[dteresa]

Maybe someone else can address this but it is my understanding that a more accurate test for b12 is to test for methyl malonic acid (MMA) which gives a more accurate picture of your b12 status. Maybe this is a good question for Jeff.

didi

[f1jim]

Probably without your consent, berniek, a primarily lurking member has posted your message as some kind of evidence of widespread problems with the diet here on the forum. It was posted on the Diet Debate forum on the WebMD pages. Obviously, that isn't true and someone having a recent issue is not evidence of anything. Your issue has nearly limitless possible causes and your are to be commended for posting and asking for help with this issue.
It's sad that people will stoop to this to make their points about the possible inadequacy of this program in regards to nutritional needs. We don't even know if that is what the issue is as the issue has causes that range from inadequate calories to rare blood disorders. But somehow that shows there are "many" people struggling with this here on the forum. The reality is the vast majority of people find health, energy, and nutritional excellence here that rarely, someone has an issue and looks for guidance here to help resolve it. They actually end up helping make the case for us instead of trying to demean the program. It's sad certain individuals make it their personal mission to cast doubts about this program. It reminds me that life is so very short and we really have little time to waste on such nonsense.
f1jim

[dteresa]

Jim, JC posted the link and I believe he eats somewhere between McDougall and Fuhrman with starches as part of his diet. The group you are referring to is a diet debate group and I suspect JC is just posting as a means of getting a discussion going. Perhaps my memory is faulty but I do not recall his being critical of a starch diet. I personally think it is in my own best interests to keep abreast of what the science says and although I am 100% compliant to WFPB no added fat eating am not closed to the idea of some new finding. As a matter of fact there are people who write here and say they are not doing well on starch based eating and one person recently says he feels better on a fruit diet. Others like Katy might have particular allergies or other problems and like her, need to refine the diet and eliminate some things. It is perfectly proper on this group to write in that you are not doing well because someone may have the answer for you. As an example of another diet, some do very well on Fuhrman but if one family member tried it she would have to write in that she does not do well on such a diet. It turns out she is extremely allergic to tree nuts. So someone who has not eaten nuts before might write that the Fuhrman diet is not working for him.

And to be perfectly honest, many on this group including myself, have read some statements on paleo, low carb or in the news, which we find totally ridiculous, not science based and just plain wrong that we post here for comment. So I guess turn about is fair play.

didi

[f1jim]

Perhaps that's the case as the 3 people that post over there need some help getting a discussion going. I think it's quite a stretch to imply a significant number of people have problems when following the diet. Even more of a stretch to use this post by berniek to try to reinforce that position. Yes, people do occasionally have issue they want help with. Usually those issues have little to do with the diet. To imply otherwise might make it easier to get a discussion going but useless for anything else.
f1jim

[parishmp]

A comprehensive blood panel with the additional usual suspects from the endocrine world should uncover any possible problem you might have including low testosterone. I remember when chemo knocked out so much of my endocrine system that I was always weak and tired at fifty. Over the decade and a half since every function has come back with testosterone being the last to recover. I can tell you getting testosterone back to normal levels have made a huge difference in energy, strength, muscle mass, bone density, sexual function and sleep. It is amazing how much of how you feel and function depends on this simple chemical.