Strict McDougall diet has FAILED me and my CHILDREN

[JuicerJohn]

By the way, lots of folks here have dabbled in Dr. Furhman's books and diet advice, and yes, he is much more in favor of high fat foods like nuts. Many of us have taken a little McDougall, a little Furhman, a little Esselstyn, and found just the right mix for our individual needs. I think Dr. McDougall is clear about oil, a highly refined product with essentially no nutritional value, being harmful to MOST, especially those who need to lose weight. But eating nuts, which as whole foods contain other valuable nutrients, is not forbidden by McDougall. It will certainly derail weight loss for lots of people and is therefore not part of the McDougall maximum weight loss program, but you are not part of that group.

Unfortunately, I agree with the OP that this message gets lost. This board is largely "ruled" by people practicing MWL, and even the mention of eating a Sunshine Burger, with some fat in it, gets ridicule. I can see why her experience was that the idea of fat in any form is typically discouraged.

There is a vast difference between those who have lots of weight to lose and those who don't. Yet, this difference tends to get ignored on diet boards. I feel for the OP, as I also feel stumped by my steady RISE in cholesterol following this WOE. That isn't what is promised. Everyone else seems to have these great health improvements, but what if those of us who are already quite thin need MORE fat? What if we might even need fish or fish oil? After all, thin Asian populations did eat some fish.

It's something to ponder. I'm certainly rethinking what I've been doing. Not that I believe consuming animal products is the answer. I'd never want go back to that, but I'm considering that there are some holes in this WOE that need to be addressed.

I think it makes a difference whether you start thin or start heavy. Those of us who only have 5-10 pds to lose may really need to do some things differently.

You may be right that for some, strict adherence is not really necessary, but for others, it very well maybe.

Have a look at this post here of one person's experience with making compromises.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36547

[TerriT]

Rychei, I am very sorry to hear that you have had a bad time and that you are worried about what effect this might have had on your children. I have sometimes seen posts on these forums by people who are following the McDougall diet but seem to have introduced further restrictions because they want to make their diet as "pure" or "perfect" as possible, and then they interpret these restrictions as something Dr McDougall recommends. Looking at your original post and some of your previous posts on these forums I wonder if this might have happened to you?

You seem to have been very worried about eating peanut butter and nuts or giving them to your children and you write that "Mcdougall had put a heathly fear of nuts into my head." But if you read the following newsletter article you will see that he lists nuts and nut butters as healthy foods that can provide additional calories for children and he mentions his children and grandchildren eating peanut butter sandwiches.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/sep/children.htm

You say in your original post that "You know he [Dr McDougall] doesn't demonize only oil, but highly fatted whole foods too." I would disagree with this. It's my understanding from Dr McDougall's books and newsletter articles that he does not demonize these foods, but recommends eating them with caution (or avoiding altogether) if someone is trying to lose weight. And in the following article, he suggests that those who need to gain weight might want to add high-fat foods such as nuts and seeds, nut and seed butters, olives and avocados to their diets.

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougal ... weight.htm

I am not trying to change your mind or convince you to continue with this way of eating but I feel that it's important to clarify some of the things you've said for others who might be reading your post. I sincerely hope you find a way of eating that you and your family are happy with. It sounds like you are making changes in that direction already.

[SweetPea]

And I haven't asked the pros because, after reading almost every thread on "why won't my cholesterol lower?", I feel pretty certain what would be advised. I'm going to resume taking "Cholest Off", Metamucil, and just continue to do my best to eat plenty of beans, barley, and oats. But I was thinking of adding a bit more whole food fats, like nuts and avocados, since I don't have weight to lose.

I feel fine, and look very healthy. It's just really odd and conflicts with so many experiences here.

I might also consider looking at some of the other possible culprits (age, heredity, lack of exercise, etc.)...in addition to diet:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/summer12/articles/summer12pg6-7.html

While it seems like a sucker punch in some ways, it appears that for women as we age, it could just naturally start to rise.

You have also suggested in many of your posts that if weight loss isn't an issue, small indulgences when eating out shouldn't be a problem. I'm wondering though, if those small indulgences are adding up to make your diet higher in fat than you might realize (and perhaps in combo with a susceptibility to other risk factors, it's causing your cholesterol to rise)?

I do appreciate your honesty and hope you are able to get the levels where you want them to be.

[veggylvr]

You may be right that for some, strict adherence is not really necessary, but for others, it very well maybe.

I'm not even suggesting that strict adherence is unnecessary. I'm talking about the message often presented here that even adherence to the regular plan isn't strict enough.

Nuts, avocados and other higher fat foods are allowed on the regular plan. I think growing children need extra fat. Certainly, a breastfeeding mother, like the the OP, needs extra fat, especially when she "only has 5 pds to lose." Thinner people shouldn't be trying to achieve the same fat percentage as those with pounds to lose.

Unfortunately, Rychei got the message that she should keep her (and her children's) fat percentage down to MWL levels because so many here are following that, and some seem to have decided that those guidelines are the true ones for "strict adherence" to the McDougall plan. So, she thought she shouldn't ever eat nuts, but that isn't correct, and now, who gets blamed? Dr. McDougall.

[PineappleTraci]

And I haven't asked the pros because, after reading almost every thread on "why won't my cholesterol lower?", I feel pretty certain what would be advised. I'm going to . . . continue to do my best to eat plenty of beans, barley, and oats, [as well as possibly] adding a bit more whole food fats, like nuts and avocados, since I don't have weight to lose.

That's probably true -- we probably *do* know what they'd say. I take it from what you're saying that it would feel like a one-size-fits-all prepackaged answer to you? ("Just follow my usual advice, but even more strictly!")

I would think that Dr. Esselstyn would have enough experience with difficult cases to speak clearly and intelligently on the matter. I would think that if he has in fact had the most recalcitrant of cholesterol levels and arteries, that he would know by now if there are exceptions to the rule (where people should add fats rather than strip them away).

I don't know. I am not in your shoes, so I am just thinking aloud. Totally support your dietary decisions, though, whatever they may be!

[veggylvr]

You have also suggested in many of your posts that if weight loss isn't an issue, small indulgences when eating out shouldn't be a problem. I'm wondering though, if those small indulgences are adding up to make your diet higher in fat than you might realize (and perhaps in combo with a susceptibility to other risk factors, it's causing your cholesterol to rise)?

I have gotten more and more strict the longer I've been here. The only compromise I make is occasional oil in a restaurant meal, but all my at home meals are adherent. I think my fat percentage is WAY lower than it ever was before, which is what doesn't make sense.

I mean, I was cooking with olive oil a year and a half ago! And eating meat and cheese. I can see my cholesterol being slow to drop on this WOE, but rising?

I am entering menopause though and that could be a factor. My LDL had dropped in Dec, when I was taking Cholest Off, but my triglycerides were really high. Then, I noticed Cholest Off lists "small chain triglycerides" in their ingredients so I stopped taking it. Why would it contain triglycerides?

Anyway, I'd rather have lower LDL and higher triglycerides than the reverse. My triglycerides dropped this test and the LDL was up again. (Sigh)

[JuicerJohn]

@veggylvr

I understand what you are saying now, and I agree with you. Some can afford foods such as nuts and avocado, while other should be wary of the same.

One potential problem of this forum is that it serves a number of different audiences, from those who need to lose major amount os weight to those who are trying to maintain weight to adult who need extra fat such as nursing mothers or those who are trying to properly nourish their children.

I presented the link that I did so that some who need to be losing weight are not accidentally taken off track and remember that for them strict adherence may be more important, even to life itself.

And I do want to thank you for your wisdom and contributions to this forum.

[veggylvr]

Thank you, JuicerJohn.

[TerriT]

Unfortunately, Rychei got the message that she should keep her (and her children's) fat percentage down to MWL levels because so many here are following that, and some seem to have decided that those guidelines are the true ones for "strict adherence" to the McDougall plan. So, she thought she shouldn't ever eat nuts, but that isn't correct, and now, who gets blamed? Dr. McDougall.

I'm not sure whether Rychei got that message from these forums. She says herself that she is a very busy mom who doesn't have time to visit these forums often and that that's why she didn't post here to ask for help when she started running into problems.

I agree with you that there are a few here who sometimes give the impression that MWL is what Dr McDougall recommends and/or that it's the ideal WOE for everyone. But when they do so they are almost always called out on it by other members. Sometimes people post that they are avoiding something that's high in calorie density or high in fat because they are under the impression that it's not allowed, even though they don't need to lose weight or have health problems, but these misconceptions are also usually corrected by other members.

Rychei misunderstood the recommendations of the McDougall program as meaning that she shouldn't feed her children high-fat foods or eat them herself even though she was a nursing mother at a normal weight. But I don't think we have enough information to conclude that she got that impression from these forums, and looking at her previous posts I don't see anyone advising her that she should avoid these foods. She says in her original post that Dr McDougall demonizes nuts and high-calorie whole foods but as I pointed out in my post above this isn't actually the case. We don't know where she got this idea, unless she tells us herself, so I don't think we should be jumping to the conclusion that these forums are to blame.

[Rychei]

THANK YOU to everyone who took time to take some interest in this issue an dpost here. I feel your support lvoe and concern. I tried to take time to respond to everyone who seemed to be addressing me and was something I could respond to. I will report back in June my blood work as I too am curious what direction my cholesterol will go. We went visit daddy at work and I have to day I was SO defeated by the idea of limiting ANY of kids choices when eating out that I told them to pick ANYTHING they want. My husband did a double take and my kids kept asking my opinion, which I wouldn't give. I was interesting to see their choices and just how much they devoured! Even the waitress was amazed when we order MORE food. We went to Denny's and my oldest (11) got the Grand Slam plus a shake... he ate every bite, my nine year old had TWO kids meals a pancake plus shake (she NEVER eats much), my four year old ha a HUGE helping of mac n cheese chicken nuggets a shake and a pancake (WOW) and my nineteen month old devoured chicken nuggets grapes and pancake. The kids way out performed us adults. My husband ordered potroast (which looked nasty quite frankly) I struggled with the options, should I or shouldn't I, but diecided no starch to continue my small experiment so I braced my self and arderd the talpia (thinking of the DHA). It was hard to get past the idea of actually eating meat like that... its been so long. It was only about 4 oz maybye 5, and some fresh veggies... yes I let myself dip in their oil sugar ridden rach. Because on my current situation I cringed more at the sugar than the oil,... but I would rather not either.... ehh, I was feeling defeated though remember, so I let it go. i don't plan on doing it again anytime real soon, but Bernardo Lapallo really has me thinking about it... is it really the best source of DHA... if kept under the 5% upper limit the China Study talks about.... I don't know. Not ready to jump to that ship, but I will continue to contimplate. Animal protein we KNOW taxes the system. anyhoo... feel free to read my responses as they might help give you further insight. I responded in the order that I found them. Again thank you so much for the kindness extended to me and my situation. As far as any real anger I feel toward McDougall... its gone. (I love Sundays). i just want others to know that sometimes there can be problems that need to be watched out for and even prevented... just be aware or you minimum needs... check mutiple sources... and listen to your own body above anothers dogma. Advice I think we ALL can agree to. So here goes:

Sagefemme

I really appreciate your support. I do tend to worry quite a bit about the right foods so I thank you for the the permission let my self 'off the hook'. I do think my kid have been gravitating towards the only foods with fat in my house that I tend have for them... organic tortilla chips, whole wheat tortilla, my oldest will even avacado now and asks for it! I worry about the brain development of my youngest two though. You see my third shild had unlimited access to high omega three butter and bread when she was younger. It was one of the last unapproved things to exit stage left from the house. She is also one of the smartest and calmest children I have ever had. Its like night and day. By the time my last child came all overt fats were gone, even during pregnancy. I had NO FAT at all during the one I miscarried and felt at the time that forgetting to eat a meal here and there led to the miscarriage. Skipping those meals by accident casued major nausea and headaches as well as stomach tension. It just felt like something was wrong. So, during this last pregnancy I allowed my self to nibble on ANYTHING I craved. like cheese . I made sure not to over do it, but I really felt it helped. It was still really super duper low fat. Iguess I just feel he didn't get 'optimum' nutrition and that fat would have helped here.

Debbie
I stopped eating shredded wheat after posting questions about it here. I felt like it must be so processed that the proteins were probably damaged... much like a microwave does to food. I would suspect a gluten intolerance too, so I allergy tested using the PULSE TEST. I did fin a 'slight' increase with oats, but nothing to sound alarm bells.... possibly a mild barely noticeable headace. White Broad Beans however gave me a diffinate reation (Ihardly eat those.. but they are beans) black beans were again hardly anything. Usually I have lentils and rice over beans and they elecit no reaction.

oregonmom
Yes I tried to decsribe that I follow it strictly for a few weeks, but then fall off drastically... clearly my body wasn't getting everything it needed. I felt so guilty about it too. I do not know what MWL is. I have never read or heard McDougal say to eat plenty of nuts and or avacado EVER. I generally was eating 1/2 to one whole avacado per day.... it was enough.... I added a small hand ful of pecans... seemed to help but still wasn't enough. It was only when I seriously began to look at NOT limiting those two foods that I noticed a marked improvment. Such an improvement in fact, that more problems were going away than I had realised I was even having... or at least how bad it had really gotten. It was like walking out of a storm into the clam and getting a sky full of light I just never thought would be there again. I don't know how else to describe it. This another reason why I am pretty sure a gluten intolerance was not the issue either. The resolution came to quickly upon the heels of this dietary change. It was then that I knew that I wanted to embrace unlimited nuts and avacados for the time being, but needed to eliminate a different food to make room. I chose to eliminate the starches. So far I am doing great.... we'll see when I get my cholesterol checked here in a month or two again (just had it done in march it was 121 with a ratio of 2.1 if I remember right). The best part is I don't even feel left out right now when others eat their fattening sugary junk. I just smile ear to ear because I am feeling so much more complete, satisfied, healty and most importantly AT PEACE than I was before. I am VERY curious to see how the blood work will turn out. I will be sharing. (Funny thing I didn't even expect, I am actually LOOSING weight now again. 129.5 lbs...not even trying)

F1jim
Thank you. I have found peace so far. life is a journey of individual discoveries. Thank you for letting me share. Sunday was a great day for me and I no longer harbor 'anger' towards the good doctor, the diet, nor the harm I percieve my body and children have recieved. I feel like I found a window of light. I am just so thankful there was a way solve the issues. Not until I began to feel so great did I even realize quite how bad things were... either I was in denial, used to it, or (more likey) it was so gradual that it snuck up on me. I just wish there a larger embracing of eating these foods... especially for pregnant and nursing mothers.

coasting
I am very glad that the diet worked for you. I feel that you are exactly the type of person the diet is aimed for and it has been a blessing to me as well. I began making changes according to the plan in the fall of 2009 right after I had read the China Study. I would have to go look to find excat numbers, but earlier that year my cholesterol was just above 240, my waist around 35 inches, weighed 160, and I was told I was now at risk, but not to worry about it because I had just had a baby and so that was affecting the numbers. It was my third child and I had gained five pounds after each child to that point that had never gone away. I was at that five pound mark so I wasn't very convinced I shouldn't worry, plus my father and grandmother died of cancer and my grandfather died of a heart attack... I had watched my mother have heartattacks as a teenager.... my gene pool wasn't going to help me. Changing the diet was a step by step process. Milk and cheese was already gone so meat was next. After that it was most prepackaged foods then flour. I never used more than a tablespoon per day of oil for the family, but I learned how to eliminate that too. Finally butter, peanutbutter and yeasty bread was gone. Yes occasional treats were OK (see the back of mcdougall cookbook =) But they were only about once per month. Even Esylstein's cookbook has overt sugar in some recipes....probably not intended until maintenace is reached. My point with the 'strict adherance' and then falling off is that my body actually needed something it wasn't getting. A type of pica if you will. See above to my response to oregonmom. I am glad the diet has been so good for you. It has been good for me too, but I have been doing well for sometime with cholesterol and baby weight. My current goals have evolved around optimal nutrition now and the ultimate in health, and for me, without this major tweak, it wan't working. By the way the cravings for chocolate and doughnut eating were only during this last year or so after my weight had reached it's apparent bottom of 135, despite this bad binging I still quickly lost any weight (in a day or two) gained from it and my overall cholesterol still dropped... I think my chlesterol was in the low 130s last year. I eliminated most flour based foods ie bread last year, and avoided eating too many of the corn chips in the house and only used the tortillas for an occasional wrap... I prefer salads. My guilt stemmed from knowing the doughnut and choclate bing wasn't the best thing for me to be doing. Surely there is a better way than doughnuts and choclate to get whatever it was I needed.... but I just couldn't figure out what that was.

heartchakra
I am glad he was so prompt with you all of the time. He was prompt with me with I approached him on the forum to tell me to email him privately. He just never responded to the email. Maybe he just got skipped by accident or something. I wrote it about a year or more ago asking about an article I read about nursing, DHA, fish and brian development in children. Things happen I guess, but it did very much feel as though I was being shelfed. I don't think McDougall is evil by any means. I think he is a wonderful person doing wonderful things, I would just like him to tweak his stance to protect the future me's out there. I don't want ANYONE else to stuggle or get hurt. I know it's generally rare, but it happens.

BeanBubby2
I used the term strict because I was trying to put emphasis on the avoidance or at least 'limiting' the higher fatty foods. There is generally strong mention that these things will increase cholesterol and make one fat. I get that when beginning this lifestyle. It honestly a god way to get a real close look at what one actually does eat and get it under control. BUT there might come a point (as in my case) where limiting natuarlly high fat whole foods should not be done or it could actually cause harm. The constant warning made me really hesitant about embracing them sooner. I love the blood panel idea and amd definately going to be doing one around June. As for hormonal flux, you better believe it! Fat isoflavones and lignans all have to do with horomones. PUFA 6 is know to affect estrogen as well as isoflavones (found in soy) and lignan (found in grains and beans) Horomones also affect weight and metabolism, so I imagine these foods do too. I personally supect my body had entered somekind of starvation mode, especially since my skin got so thin. I have put a lot study into these topics... it would take a long time to share and go through together. I am trying to understand which fats and lignans play what roles in what parts of the body. Some of it is easy, but other parts are complex, yet others are still being discovered... so there is a lot to learn here.

KittymcKnitty
The amaylase gene is a very insightful comment I have never heard about. There might be something to it, I am interested in learning more.

PineappleTraci
A big fat THANKYOU.... I agree with everyword. I feel that basic diet premise is an important thing for many to learn, but once basically undestood and experience individuals may begin to vary. It's like there is a 'range'. Step outside of the range and its just not safe, while tweaking inside that range there is an optimal, possibly varying point for each individual. Maybe diet isn't exactly static either. I think there might be something to eatin foods according to season and location as plants have different nutrients based on climate and such as well.

Dinska
I am complete sincere. Lara Bars have NO SUGAR, so I just can't call them cany bars. In fact it is thinking along lines like these that it took so long to come around to trying foods like these beyond the 'small handful of nuts and bit of avacado' The nutrients packed in these whole foods are quite different from the PUFA's you'll find in regular junk food. There is a difference. I did not get sustainable relief from junk when I broke down. I felt slightly better, but guilty, and deffinately not a sustained sense of well being. My skin is now slowly improving... I imagine, the last bits of improvement will take more time than the first inital quick responses I got. It litterally has been like walking out of a storm and into the.... I really had no idea how bad the storm was until I had step out of it, I also had no clue to the cause of the problem untilI found what I consider to be the key.

Learning
I am having a hard time understanding the WOE accronym and MWL. I have substituted nuts for starches for the time in order to maintain and preserve the sense of well being while my body heals. Funny thing is that I began loosing weight even though things are MUCH better for me now. Maybe on days you want nuts you could just trade out a few starches.. i dunno. I was hardly able to get lower than 133-135. It's only been a couple of weeks and I was completely suprised to see a drop in weight since I pretty much wrote that goal off for now. I am 129.5 right now to my surprise, and almost to my once thought 'perhaps unattainable' goal. I wish you sucess.

Jaimetwo

I think when a team fails both fail. In this case I think it is the spirit of the diet plan in regards to fat... or rather the map or game plan that has failed. I still think it is a great plan for a lot of people, but for pregnant or nursing mothers especially I think there needs to more statements about not only avoiding fat altogether, but also which fats to avoid and which one to get, and to enough of them too. I am impressed your child has never had a doughnut. My kid's dad like to reward them with treats for good grades on report cards or when a major goal is reached.... I got sick of ice cream being the reward since I HATE dairy (and Monsanto) so they switched to doughnuts. I the summer treats amp up to about once every three weeks, while during the school years it is about every term.
Here are what I consider some very important link on DHA and ARA
http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html
http://www.007b.com/breastfeeding_intelligence_diet.php
http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=2740

I didn't include some of the direct studies but I have them... the articles have some listed as well. I think EVERY mother to be or mothe of a young brain developing child should know this. That is partly why I responded to McDougalls EFA article.

veggylvr
This message was most certainly lost on me. I don't read tons of posts here... I go straight to the horse's mouth. McDougall stresses limiting nuts avacado and such... not avoidance, but limitation. He always has cautions atached with it and I have never heard him warn anyone about being careful to get enough fat in the diet. I do not know what MWL means. I have been doing a lot of thinking and scrutinizing of fish lately too. I am seriously debating it. I watched and interview of supercentarian Bernardo Lapallo... and it really has me thinking. see it here
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2010/01/08/ ... o-lapallo/
PS I switched out the nuts for all of my starches for the time. I feel MUCH better and I am surprised to say I have rboken throught the weight barrier and am 129.5 today... toatlly unexpected.

Pineappletraci
I am interest in this book thankyou for mentioning it. My nust are raw or pasturised and unsalted. Lara bars have NO sugar. Ingredients are ONLY nuts and dried unsweented fruit. I agree adding in sugar in any form will cause too much chomping. It turns off the brain signals of satiety. I found this study interesting on nuts and weight gain http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16277792 I am definately NOT sending people over to junk food or PLEASURE TRAP foods as you call the. Plain nuts and fruits (even though they are dry) are not a pleasure trap. I am assuming you didn't know Lara Bars are ONLy nuts and fruit since your post indicated such. I AGREE the sugar put into the mix would mess the whole thing up. Can you imagine taking a high satiety food like nuts and adding in SUGAR to tuen tha satiety mechanism OFF. Yowch that would be a vey bad mix. Glad were on the same page. Here is a REALLY interesting talk about how sugar is a toxin...It's called SUGAR: THE BITTER TRUTH. I believe it too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM Ithink EVERY DOCTOR should listen to this.

veggylover

You're on to something. I think the body is meant to cycle through seasons. Maybe I diet based in starched, then swith out for nut or fishing season. (nuts store really well) so I am not making a good anaysis here, but my point is there is seasons to growing food and we have come away from that. I think swithcing things up helps keep the motabolsim healthy, just as some doctors say having a sugar spike once in a while is actually good excersice for you pancrease... but it should be limited a bit. Since switching out nuts for starches I am loosing weight to my surprise but am still holding good a the status quo. I still have tons of veggies and sone fruit. I also have an inside belief that the lignans in the grains and what not are signaling to estorgens in the body somehow to not let go of the fat on it, especially when we aren't eating any fat. A high motabolish BURNS fat. I think you might have to give a little in order to give you body permission to burn it. Also its not total cholesterol that needs as tight a wach as it is the ratio and the VLDLs the sugar creates.Watch this... called Sugar: the bitter truth, It's interesting....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
I left a link above abour Bernardo LaPallo's 3 part interview too. Advice from a super centarian himself.

I'm gonna skip a few here

Steve
I was very respectful in the email. If you look through my past posts on asking about DHA my email was almost verbaitim. I have been doing this diet since about fall of 2009, not just one year. There has been a learning curve and I have been blessed along the way... to a point, and then the tun wa not a good one. I am very glad you are still around to bless the world and I am glad this diet has helped you. I wish you long life.

jld
I gave myself a break when I realised fat was so darn important, and to put too much confidence in ONE person is totally not good. I want to note that I am respoding to everyone and this is taking my whole day and I am NOT getting paid a DIME. I just want othes to be blessed, safe and healthy. I really like your broad perspective, thankyou. your b12 advice is a good one and I agree and hope EVERYONE takes note. I started supplementing quite a bit a few months back... it helped some, but deffinately not as dramatically. Thank you for your post.

mab56
Cheating at most would be every three weeks for a period of one to two months (the beginning of this year) Prior to that it was spead out to every two to three months. (Ihate that word 'cheat' doesn't jut make guilt flood.) My choclate stash of choclate chips would be part of that mentioned above. When binging I would eat 1-2 large chaclate bars and or 6-8 doughnuts ver two days. Choclate chips would sometimes slip in as a small handful (2TBS) and would either be every day or none for a couple of months in between... I eventually got over to a small handful of nuts instead. I began to see nuts as an aswer but was very unsure of this choice and although Fuhrman is fine with it I was looking for confirmation from McDougall's materials.... I really appreciate your candor. Since switching over to nuts now I dont even want the sugary stuff at all.... weirdest thing ever. I actually prefer not to eat them. It's a total relief. Thank you for the links I will look at them. I would recommend you see the one on you tube called sugar: the bitter truth... see link above... its long but good. It really helped me understand sugar even better, also I feel sugar is a grain or grass and tha perhaps that family of foods in general might have mild similar effects as the refined stuf.... just something to think on.

JuicerJohn
OP means Original Poster right? Thank you for seeing what I was aiming at.Thank you for the link.

TerryT
You have a valid concern, mayb I went too far. But honestly I just cut out almost all refined foods and limited avacados and avoided nuts. That's it. I say almost all refined foods because making oil free tortillas was too much so I bought them and my kids (and myself on occasion too) enjoy chips and slasa or a vegan nocho dip... so the organic corn ship ar the only other real staple with oil, a no no, in it that I can think of. I wish I had seen the post where he 'recommends' nuts before... I haven't read it yet...as I ams till replying to all of the posts, but I will. In one the cookbooks that I have a recipe that uses peanut butter clears states that he would rather not have people eat, but it seems really popular as he is asked about it all of the times and that if one must eat peanut butter get the kind where you can at least pour the oil on top off. Sounds a little disparaging to me. McDougal is know for his 'not one drop of oil' stance.... the only article I've read where he begins to talk about taking oil is taking gla as a supplement pill only... for medication. Sounds odd to me if one can get gla through nuts and other whole foods first, yet he doesn't 'recommend' that route first in the artcile He ALWAYS cautions agains 'too many' nuts avacados and the like. See the last paragragh here http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_vegetable_fat.html Also, I was NOT trying to GAIN weight. No, if fact I had hit a barrier there, but that was NOTHING compared to the other problems I was have and didn't even realized how bad it was until I began to find real relief.

OK just to pause TerryT I had to stop and read that first article. I am at paagraph one right now. He says "You never need to worry about children getting enough protein, essential amino acids, calcium, iron, zinc, or essential fats when they are eating a starch-based diet, as I recommend." He then goes on to say that shildren do need enough calories (which is easy to do by the way if you are weighing them. I have to ask, how in the heck does he think a child can get enough EFA's from starches! It's absolutely ludicrous as far as I am concerned... no really enough EFA's for what. Enough for OPTIMAL health and brain funtion, or enough to squeak by on. It is exactly these types of statements that in my mind, as far as young brain developing children and breastfeeding mothers are concerned, is do DANGEROUS. optimal DHA is going to be around 1gram per day.... now how to you get a CHILD to eat enough starches to get 1 gram... or even 250 mg of Omega 3. I hear it coming, why flaxseed Rychei... but do you know that flax seed works as an estrogen or antiestrogen, an very strong one in fact, and do you REALLY want to be giving your kids something that will toy with their horomones? The rest of the article you posted indeed continues to demonixes the DA and government for pushing animal foods... he throws fish into the mix. Please let us not forget Colin Campbell origial studies on cancer and animal protein and the 5% safety limit (maxing out the average 2000 cal diet to 100 cal per day) Please watch Bernardo Lapallo... and it really has me thinking. see it here
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2010/01/08/ ... o-lapallo/
He is a very withit supercentarian. Also here is the basic thinking.... right or wrong... about the human brain and its development that currently is the scientific tend in thinking it is found at the franklin institue webste about the human brain http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html
I appreciate your post perhaps your right and saying that McDougall is demonizing high fatty whole foods is a poor choice of words, but he is ALWAYS saying to limit them and not amp them up. I KNOW he would not approve of my switcing out his beloved starches all together for nuts. I will post my blood work for comparison though, so we shall see. I feel a little heated when reading your post because it seems you fail entirely to see that a diet too low in fat (and for children too low in efa's) can HARM. I know the doc is doing a general bang up job, and good for him, but SOME of us need to be warned to make sure we are getting ENOUGH, and assuming the deit perscription of "random eating of only veggies fruits and plenty of starches with no added oil sugar etc followedd by a Eat nut and avacados,but please limit them" will always be the perfect diet and NEVER cause a lack of essential nutrients. I bought off on that. I worked great... too a point, and then it served me none too well. I think people need to listen to their BODIES, once they learn how to of course (which is a major learning curve to start with, andthis diet isprobably a good place for many to launch fro to gain tha insight). If someones body then begin to say nay I now understand one needs to tune in closely and listen to that voice first, puzzle it out, it might not completely align with the good doc, but it might bless you anyways.
Veggylvr
If there really is a different philosophy I am getting mixed up with from posters here I would love to know. I gernaly don't read tons of posts here. I usually only stick what McDougall of Jeff Novack have to say. I know he allows nuts. I had beagn allowing a small handful and I was having 1/2 to even one whole avacado... I wan't calorie counting or anyting, just getting my fill. BUT... andits a big one for me, every time McDougall mentions nuts or avacado it is always (hate using word like that, but I can't find an example with out) has the caveat of 'limiting' them. It just wasn't working for me to limit them. Agan since switching out starches for fat right now (all those nuts had to squish SOMETHING out) I am feeling so much better. My mood has entirely shifted too.... anxiety seems gone. I'll keep trying this and report back in probably June about my cholesterol. Thank you for your supportive comments.

[jewagar]

PS MWL = Maximum Weight Loss

[veggylvr]

Rychei, I think McDougall's advice to limit nuts and other high fat whole foods is usually given with the caveat of "for those trying to lose weight". Maybe I'm wrong, and perhaps he used the term "limit" in other contexts without explaining further, but I believe that is the intent.

I doubt he would ever say limit whole food fats for growing children or pregnant/nursing mothers. Many here follow MWL (the Maximum Weight Loss version of the plan), and they naturally limit those foods, so I thought you were responding to those posts or perhaps questions posed to Jeff Novick or Dr. McDougall by people following MWL.

I don't understand why you feel you must "switch out" nuts for starch. Why can't you enjoy both? If you don't have much weight to lose and you feel so much better eating nuts, then it seems having both starch and nuts would lead to the greatest level of satiety and diversity.

Also, kids will gorge on anything "forbidden" but that doesn't make it good for them, or signal that they're malnourished. You seem to be very concerned about their malnourishment, and I don't know how long you've followed this WOE or what your kids were typically fed, but a doctor should be able to assess them for developmental delays and perhaps put your mind at ease. There is no reason they should've suffered any malnourishment if fed plenty of whole plant foods.

I will say that making food a treat or reward - especially bad, SAD food - is a recipe for eating problems. You can't reinforce the idea of eating healthy, unprocessed food, then say, "But if you bring home a great report card, you can have a donut!" That's making the donut the prize, and it sends the wrong message - like they're being deprived normally by having healthy food at home. I'd steer away from using food as a treat in any way. Take them to do a favorite activity instead. My kids are 19 and 23, and they always enjoyed vegetables because I made them delicious. It was a "treat" to have a delicious broccoli casserole for dinner. Now, my daughter is a fully committed vegan, and my son has seen "Fork Over Knives" and is leaning towards it. I don't make food an issue. I've just shown them that plant-foods are enjoyable to eat.

[Debbie]

I have no idea what a pulse test for gluten is. The only tests Ive heard of are a blood test and for celiac a biopsy of the upper intestine. Both of which can produce false results. THE only way to discover if it bothers someone is to remove for a period of 6-8 weeks then reintroduce it.

And I have to say, I agree with what jewagar said. My kids, who have eaten this way their whole lives as well, would and have reacted like yours did at the restaurant. As it is at home when we make approved pancakes, my two oldest can put away 5 pancakes each and my little one who is about 4, can put away 3-5 depending on how late breakfast is. And 2 years ago at Christmas I allowed them to eat whatever. OMG the amount of crap they put away. They had 3-5 servings easily of ham alone!!! My MIL kept giving to them cause "they liked it so much and they CANT have it at home" (said as if I am depriving them of it). And then I can go on about how much other stuff full of fat salt and sugar they ate. And this was in 1 6-8 hour period for a holiday. When my oldest sleeps over at her friends house, she always comes home starving cause they practice portion control but eat junk.

My girls eat oats from breakfast at least 5 days a week plus fruit, sometimes dried fruit. Lunch is almost always a sandwich of some kind, they mostly ask for peanut butter, but they love garbanzo bean salad, which is a mock tuna of sorts. They also get crackers or pretzels, fruit, and a juice box.


veggylvr, As for the plan having holes in it, that is true for everyone and every eating plan. But if your cholesterol is rising, look at what is on your plate. Just because a food item is allowed, say flour or higher fat plant foods or whatever, your own body may not be able to tolerate it and a rise in cholesterol is that sign. I'd look at caffeine, chocolate, flours, coffee/creamers, and so on. Something is making it rise that your particular body doesn't like but someone else's does. That's what makes this way of eating so awesome. We can all tweak what works and what doesn't work for us and our own bodies.

And there seems to only be a couple on here that are considered the MWL police. But they aren't scary big mean people. They just happened to find that MWL works best for them

[veggylvr]

veggylvr, As for the plan having holes in it, that is true for everyone and every eating plan. But if your cholesterol is rising, look at what is on your plate. Just because a food item is allowed, say flour or higher fat plant foods or whatever, your own body may not be able to tolerate it and a rise in cholesterol is that sign. I'd look at caffeine, chocolate, flours, coffee/creamers, and so on. Something is making it rise that your particular body doesn't like but someone else's does. That's what makes this way of eating so awesome. We can all tweak what works and what doesn't work for us and our own bodies

I almost never eat chocolate. I don't care much for sweets. I even gave up coffee several weeks ago, before the last test. I do eat bread (mainly sprouted grain), but I've always eaten bread, and my cholesterol was lower, and that was when I was merely eating crappy bread products.

It's so disappointing to move to what should be a much better diet and have a cholesterol rise. I can't imagine what it could be. All things being equal, it just shouldn't happen. I almost think they had to get my blood mixed up with someone else's. My doctor's office is pretty disorganized.

The low-carbers always claim that your cholesterol will rise if you go plant-based/low fat. That's what bugs me. The whole fat issue is playing in my head. Surely, they can't be right about that.

[Coasting]

"After that it was most prepackaged foods then flour. I never used more than a tablespoon per day of oil for the family, but I learned how to eliminate that too. Finally butter, peanutbutter and yeasty bread was gone"


Why would you need to eliminate flour, bread and peanut butter? To get enough energy without oil and meat and dairy, carbs is necessary and that is central to Mcdougall. I've even seen McD on a video interview saying eating white bread is ok...not the best way to eat but ok. We need energy.

Peanut butter is great. A wholefood source of healthy fats. When eating 100% adherence to plant based, if I get really hungry I would eat some bread with a bit of peanut butter. Very satisfying and it didn't stop my weight loss.