thinking outside the box

[Melinda]

This came to my mind when reading Stoumi's problem with family and eating style. Why will some people (quite a few) refuse to 'think outside the box'? As in, blindly obeying the government and media pronouncements about what we should eat, and refusing to see the validity of the research re a plant based diet? What is it about many people that they feel so threatened? Are they just generally close minded about most things? I know one of my own family members is. One of the younger nurses at work last week asked me how I stayed so slim. I remembered that she had grown up in a town known for its' left leaning community' (where I had also lived for awhile), so I decided to tell her the truth. I said with a smile - 'do you really want to know?". She said yes, and I said I eat plants, with no added oil, and gave her a brief rundown on the way of eating. She was so intrigued that she went out after work and bought "The China Study" (because I had said how seeing so many of my patients with cancer had upset me so much), and when I saw her the next day, she said that she loved the book and wanted recipes. This is a young woman in her late 30's slim and healthy looking. BUT she grew up in a broad minded community, where many different lifestyles were accepted, from loggers to environmentalists, and saw many of her friends eating tofu. So I understand why she was open to it.
What are people's thoughts on 'thinking outside the box'? What makes one person open minded and another person want to shut down?

[oregonmom]

I think a lot of it is experience. If you've only had experience with one thing, it's hard to be open to something new. I moved away from home as a teenager. I wasn't saddled with only knowing what my parents had taught me. Every new person and situation was like a learning opportunity for me. I loved learning about new people and how they lived because it broadened my horizons. But that's me. Other people in the same situation might be closed off to learning. I know most of the people still back in my small town will never budge on their thinking no matter what.

[shell-belle]

i too am astounded at the close mindedness of so many smart people when it comes to food.

oregonmom has a good point. my family moved a lot when i was a child and we lived overseas for awhile as well. so i had exposure to lots of different people, lifestyles and foods. maybe that helped make me more open-minded regarding food? i have always been interested in health and investigated macrobiotics when i was 30. i was a vegetarian before i became a vegan.

[Potatohead]

My husband is not close minded....I have been eating this way for more than 15 years..He saw my weight loss, my health improve etc...but he wanted no part of it...He had a quadruple bypass last year at the age of 52..years of bad eating and smoking had taken its toll...one year later he has been smoke free for a year,and his diet has changed alot, but he will never fully adapt to this lifestyle....You can not force someone to do what they don't want to do....Do I like it...HELL NO...but my hands are tied, I have to be thankful for the changes he has made, and live with it...He KNOWS the health benefits of this lifestyle...but He dosn't want to change and I cannot make him...He is HIS OWN person.

[f1jim]

It's all about who draws the box and why. It has nothing to do with native intelligence I don't think.
Dr. McDougall....Is he inside what we tend to think of as the mainstream box? Probably not given his popularity within the medical community. Yet his ideas and the framework for his dietary plan come straight out of the mainstream medical and nutritional literature. He would argue his ideas are not only mainstream but have been the mainstream thinking for most of humankinds existence. He doesn't view his beliefs on diet and lifestyle as outside the norm and we shouldn't either.
Now you take a perspective like that of Dr. Oz. He blows with the wind and what he is proclaiming as the perfect diet will change from week to week. Perhaps that is true "out of the box" thinking? Never settling on a firm set of guidelines and always being receptive and embracing something different. It's one of those things that sounds great in theory but in actual practice is a disaster.
I have a thread in the Journal section that parallels this thread in many ways. If you get the chance check it out. The thread is called "The Struggle." I'd love your two cents.
Thanks Melinda for an interesting thread. I know that a lot of what I previously looked at as signs of superior thinking and futuristic outlooks were only more examples of "I'm in the club, too" thinking. What we believe about diet and nutrition has to be backed up in solid science. The argument about whether it's outside the box or inside is immaterial.
f1jim

[woollyprimate]

Interesting question. I think it partly has to do with the fact that the SAD is addictive, and there is always some "expert" claiming the health benefits of meat, dairy, eggs, and oil. We practically have an olive oil fetish in this country which almost rivals the protein fetish.

As Dr. McDougall has said, "People love to hear good news about their bad habits."

It also may be that some people are more affected by the addictive properties of the food. It may be that they feel really really good after eating it (psychologically, no physically). For example, there are tons of alcoholics out there. I drink a beer and it makes me sleepy. I've never had more than two drinks, b/c I fall asleep. It doesn't make me feel good. It just makes me sleepy. But alcohol must affect alcoholics differently; otherwise, why drink so much? And possibly the SAD affects some people differently.

I think that people who don't get it actually do get it. They know that meat and dairy aren't healthy. They cling to the few experts who say otherwise (knowing full well that they are wrong) b/c they really really like that kind of food. They like that food more than their own health. Certainly alcoholics and drug addicts don't think that stuff is good for them. But they don't care b/c it feels good to ingest it. Same with food addicts.

I remember when I saw "Supersize Me" years ago, at one point he said he was depressed and the only time he felt good was when he ate McDonalds.

[shell-belle]

some people come to believe that modern medicine can keep them alive in spite of all the bad bad health decisions they make daily.
heh-heh-when I go to the grocery store I can now pick out the future diabetics by the amount of soda and cookies and junk etc in their carts.
I think most people need to give WAY more thought to what goes into their mouths, and to how much exercise they do daily.

what would they feed their million dollar race horse, or their favorite pet? I figure most people wouldn't feed them orange soda, cigarettes,
cookies, pies, gummy bears etc knowing it will kill them, or lead to hefty veterinarian expenses.

car insurance covers damages from crashes, but doesn't pay for oil changes and car maintenance.... the car owner is responsible for these. people need to view their body the same way, take care of it, study it, exercise it , feed it properly, and you will need less expensive medical and feel so much better!

As Dr Mc Dougall says:
"GOOD NUTRITION IS A SELF REWARDING TREATMENT..."

[pinkrose]

Yes, it is frustrating.

Also, have you thought about this? Many are concerned that they are not getting enough of something--protein, EFA, certain vitamins, minerals etc.--and they are fat...and many of them are sick! Maybe this worry about not getting enough is a powerful force that makes people fat and sick....

Some of us here have had to overcome that. I McDougalled for months but was still taking my multiple vitamin+mineral supplement. Since I dropped it, all of my tests have been good and I feel fine but I understand it is hard to give up this obsession with getting enough.

Do you ever wonder how people were able to be well nourished before lab tests, USDA recommendations and RDAs etc.? Most of them were probably healthier than most Americans are now!

[Pacificfords]

Why will some people (quite a few) refuse to 'think outside the box'? As in, blindly obeying the government and media pronouncements about what we should eat, and refusing to see the validity of the research re a plant based diet? What is it about many people that they feel so threatened? Are they just generally close minded about most things?

My personal opinion in living with a similar situation is that it isn't about boxes or blindly obeying at all. It is much more about feeling threatened that they might not be able to live the way they want and enjoy the food they enjoy. That is definitely the case in my house and with many of my friends and relatives. My husband often tells me "but I am not sick like you are." Then he offers up examples of people that eat the SAD that lived a long and 'healthy' life. My husband loves food. Most people I know... LOVE food. Few are willing to change. Most would rather just take a pill and eat what they want. (in my experience)

I have shared movie after movie with family members, book after book... tons of information and my own example of healing... yet... they just smile and say "that is great for you, but I am not doing it." And some of them are very, very sick. Some have died.

I am learning to just do what I need to do for me and to quit focusing on anyone else. It has been a bumpy road for me. I still speak and share as I go along... that will never stop, but I don't put nearly as much energy into worrying about the health of others anymore. People can be very set in their ways and unfortunately, from what I see... they rarely make changes until the have to, and even then they would rather be medicated and live with a treatment plan.

[Raytaupedi]

These are all excellent thoughts.
I also believe that for many people food is an extremely personal issue.
It often defines who they are. They might be willing to change many other things in their life possibly even exercise more but give up their morning bagel and cream cheese? They would rather cut off an arm.

[oregonmom]

I had someone tell me once that the difference between her and me was that I ate to live while she lived to eat. And I see this is true with many people. It is in some ways their identity and they aren't usually willing to let go of that. I see it in my own family and yes they'd rather have surgery or take a pill or risk their lives rather than take responsibility for it themselves.

[serenity]

These are all great points. I think that the emotional pull and addictive nature of foods are quite true. And I think that probably plays the major role for those who have the information, see it working for someone they love, but still don't want to do it.

I think for others who do not have the information or examples, a part of the issue is information overload for them. We are bombarded with information from print media, TV, the Internet. Friends and family frequently tout the newest thing they have heard on TV, and then next year it's something else. So, when they hear something from one of us - it sounds just like any other fad. If someone is not interested enough to make time in their busy schedule to do personal research, then the easiest path, maybe the only path, is to dismiss out-of-hand anything that is not the standard USDA propaganda.

I worked with someone like that. She was a young woman who died from an autoimmune disease. She made it clear from the beginning that she was NOT interested in any diet advice. (Not to me directly but to our group.) She mentioned that someone said to her that she should eat bananas - bananas cure everything. With BS like that coming in from all sides, how is someone supposed to filter, if they are not inclined to pursue the information themselves? Sadly, in her case, it cost her her life and left two little girls motherless.

[veggie lover]

Switching to this way of eating was easy for me. I think it's because of my upbringing. Even though we had meat and dairy, my mother was health conscious and wouldn't buy twinkies, lucky charms, fruit loops, etc. and very rarely would she buy chips and soda - maybe for a birthday or something "special". I don't ever remember her buying pizza. If we had pizza, it was homemade. She made homemade wheat bread every week. I used to be embarrassed because my sandwich looked different than my friend's Wonder bread sandwiches. I didn't realize how lucky I was to have homemade bread all the time - what a treat!

My husband grew up very differently. Taste was the most important thing to his mother, indeed, to his entire family. Eating ice cream every night was a normal thing to do. His mother always bought candy and ate it regularly. I remember one Thanksgiving watching his mother adding more and more brown sugar and butter to a pan of candied yams while they cooked. I was shocked to see the pools of butter collecting all over in the pan yet she still kept adding more butter. I thought "enough already!" This was years before I started eating plant based whole foods.

Sadly, my husband's parents both died at age 70, his dad died of a heart attack and his mother died of a pulmonary embolism. She also had colon cancer in her 50's but it was caught early and they just had to remove a section of her colon...no radiation or chemo.

My parents are both living still - my mom is 75 and my dad is 84.

My husband and I went to a 2 day seminar here in AZ last month with Dr. Esselystyn, Rip Esselstyn, Jeff Novick, Doug Lisle, and others. It was an excellent 2 day seminar. It just reconfirmed to me that this is the right way to eat! I'll never go back to the old way! My husband was sitting there with me and heard all the same things but he is not willing to give up the foods he loves. He does eat the food I cook without complaint though, but he travels a lot for work and eats the old way when he's out of town (for the most part...he's doing better since the seminar). He thinks I'm being extreme but at the same time is very proud of me. He thinks I have some sort of extraordinary will power that most people don't have and so that's why I was able to change.

So anyway, that's my take on it....one's upbringing has a lot to do with it and whether or not as children they were taught to eat healthy foods and avoid junk food.

[Ginger]

Another factor has to do with delayed gratification and low frustration tolerance. Some people are able to be able to effectively say to themselves "I don't have to have this right now, I can wait until later" and others have a "I want what I want and I want it right now" philosophy. You see this in regards to food, drugs, and money. People cannot stand to have the feelings of not having what they want. The brilliant, if not cantankerous, psychologist Albert Ellis did wonderful work on this subject that related to the ability of people to tolerate feelings of discomfort. There is a famous experiment called "The Marshmallow Experiment" where young children are given a marshmallow and are told if they don't eat it for 20 minutes they can then have two. Some couldn't stand to wait and others could. Apparently this trait stayed with them throughout their lives.