Dr. McDougall's Health & Medical Center
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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:51 am 
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nicoles wrote:

Low Vitamin D has also been correlated with autoimmune disease, whereas "adequate" Vitamin D has been correlated with decreased autoimmune disease risk, but it is a chicken-and-egg type thing, I think.



I'm tellin' y'all, and I've been sayin' it for years, there's just no escapin' them durn chickens! Yup. If it weren't for chickens, the world just might quit spinning. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:56 am 
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Agnes I know what Dr Mc Dougall's position is on vit D. I choose to take it anyway. I never said anything about CAUSE. I said low vit D levels have been correlated with many medical conditions and maybe vit D "plays a role".


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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:58 pm 
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AlwaysAgnes wrote:
nicoles wrote:

Low Vitamin D has also been correlated with autoimmune disease, whereas "adequate" Vitamin D has been correlated with decreased autoimmune disease risk, but it is a chicken-and-egg type thing, I think.



I'm tellin' y'all, and I've been sayin' it for years, there's just no escapin' them durn chickens! Yup. If it weren't for chickens, the world just might quit spinning. :mrgreen:





:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:57 pm 
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shell-belle wrote:
Agnes I know what Dr Mc Dougall's position is on vit D. I choose to take it anyway. I never said anything about CAUSE. I said low vit D levels have been correlated with many medical conditions and maybe vit D "plays a role".


Huh?

The post you responded to included a question about CAUSE. Pinkrose tossed it up into the air: Do you know anyone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition caused by D deficiency? Sorry if my responding after quoting both of you caused (how'd that word get there?) anyone any additional confusion or angst. Just dancin' to the beat of my own drum here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pa ... amind.html
http://www.jsonline.com/features/health/85832457.html

I'm not trying to reach and/or maintain a high normal D--32 or 55 or whatever. I choose to take D right now (and try to get a little sun) because I've tested <20 twice. It's my body. My dance. Y'all can do what you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRWL5_Vl ... re=related
ey. If I dance off a cliff, just toss some flowers down on me. :D Daisies, if ya got 'em.

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:50 am 
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Location: San Diego
AlwaysAgnes wrote:
shell-belle wrote:
Agnes I know what Dr Mc Dougall's position is on vit D. I choose to take it anyway. I never said anything about CAUSE. I said low vit D levels have been correlated with many medical conditions and maybe vit D "plays a role".


Huh?

The post you responded to included a question about CAUSE. Pinkrose tossed it up into the air: Do you know anyone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition caused by D deficiency? Sorry if my responding after quoting both of you caused (how'd that word get there?) anyone any additional confusion or angst. Just dancin' to the beat of my own drum here.
..................

Agnes you posted:
.....................

Cause is an interesting word.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... l-disease/

Wouldn't it be nice if life were simple--and we wouldn't need to wait for a rooster to lead us to the hen that laid all those eggs in our basket? I don't know. Maybe life without chickens would be boring.
.................
YOU were the one who brought up the word CAUSE.


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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:30 pm 
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shell-belle wrote:
AlwaysAgnes wrote:
shell-belle wrote:
Agnes I know what Dr Mc Dougall's position is on vit D. I choose to take it anyway. I never said anything about CAUSE. I said low vit D levels have been correlated with many medical conditions and maybe vit D "plays a role".


Huh?

The post you responded to included a question about CAUSE. Pinkrose tossed it up into the air: Do you know anyone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition caused by D deficiency? Sorry if my responding after quoting both of you caused (how'd that word get there?) anyone any additional confusion or angst. Just dancin' to the beat of my own drum here.
..................

Agnes you posted:
.....................

Cause is an interesting word.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... l-disease/

Wouldn't it be nice if life were simple--and we wouldn't need to wait for a rooster to lead us to the hen that laid all those eggs in our basket? I don't know. Maybe life without chickens would be boring.
.................
YOU were the one who brought up the word CAUSE.



What, ya wanna have a discussion about the difference between cause and caused? It's a D. 8) Can something be caused without cause? So which came first? Are you following me? I said cause is an interesting word because someone asked a question which included the word caused. Did I not? You responded to the same question. This isn't rocket science. Thank goodness. I won't be doin' any of that in this lifetime. :duh:

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:52 am 
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sliggi111 wrote:
... My vitamin D level recently tested at 10.7... Even last spring and summer where I exposed most of my body to the sun five days a week, I developed a deep tan but my vitamin D tested at 19. . . supplement or no.
...


An analogy, two comments and a request:
1) Lipitor supplementation causes blood level readings of Total Cholesterol to appear lower. However supplemention with Lipitor to achieve blood levels readings of Total Cholesterol <150 does NOT make us heart attack proof. Achieving blood levels readings of Total Cholesterol <150 via a whole-foods plant based diet DOES make us heart attack proof. The 150 reading in and of itself is a mere number. The significance lies in how we arrive at the number. Ingestion of cholesterol STILL damages those who supplement with Lipitor. We can use Hormone D supplemention to achieve blood level readings of >20 ng/mL but still suffer from Sunshine Deficiency.
2) Having a deep tan is not necessarily indicative of adequate blood levels of Hormone D. The first & last few hours of daylight (UV-A rays) will tan Caucasian skin, however it's the few hours encompassing solar noon (which is smack in the middle of daylight hours, i.e. an equal amount of hours/minutes from both sunrise & sunset, e.g. sunrise/set today in Upstate NY = 5:43am/8:02pm = 1:53pm SOLAR NOON) which provide what is needed to stimulate Hormone D (UV-B rays). The earlier or later a person "tans" herself from solar noon the greater the ratio of UV-A vs UV-B (that's bad - you maximize the disadvantage of sun exposure and minimize the advantage). The closer a person "tans" himself to solar noon the greater the ratio of UV-B vs UV-A (that's good - you maximize the advantage of sun exposure while minimizing the disadvantage). Optimal time today was 1:33pm-2:13pm. For more on this see Dr Alona Pulde's article http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/articles ... nswers.php &/or buy the Lederman/Pulde book from McDougall's store. And then google images of Dr Holick, who is THE authority on Hormone D, and see a very, VERY white face devoid of any tan whatsoever, to know that Hormone D and tan skin do not correlate.
3) Blood levels of Hormone D are also dependent upon body fat levels. Optimal body fat percentage = 3%–5% in men, and 8–12% in women. How many of us know our percentage? I would guess <0.01% of us really know. Accurate testing is expensive and not covered by health insurance. Calipers and their mathematical formulas are nonsense. The best that nearly all of us readily have is simply to refer to optimal BMI levels, which = 20 to 22. (I can hear the macho conan types whining as I write this: "Oh but my BMI is high because I'm muscular" - yeah ok whatever.) Hormone D is sequestered into our fat stores to get us (those of us living in temperate latitudes) through the Winter. The more fat you have the less your Hormone D is going to show up on a blood test. Though it might show up if we analyze the globs of fat removed during an obese person's liposuction. All variables aside (e.g. race, age, height, weight, BMI, diet, exposure to sun, etc) a man's blood level of Hormone D is greater than a woman's. Everybody following me or have I lost somebody? Just lemme know if further clarification is required.
4) Now for my request. I want to ask those of you who own a Sperti light to please write about your experiences, specifically whether or not you feel investing in one was a wise decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:12 pm 
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"3) Blood levels of Hormone D are also dependent upon body fat levels. Optimal body fat percentage = 3%–5% in men, and 8–12% in women. How many of us know our percentage? I would guess <0.01% of us really know. Accurate testing is expensive and not covered by health insurance. Calipers and their mathematical formulas are nonsense. The best that nearly all of us readily have is simply to refer to optimal BMI levels, which = 20 to 22. (I can hear the macho conan types whining as I write this: "Oh but my BMI is high because I'm muscular" - yeah ok whatever.) Hormone D is sequestered into our fat stores to get us (those of us living in temperate latitudes) through the Winter. The more fat you have the less your Hormone D is going to show up on a blood test. Though it might show up if we analyze the globs of fat removed during an obese person's liposuction. All variables aside (e.g. race, age, height, weight, BMI, diet, exposure to sun, etc) a man's blood level of Hormone D is greater than a woman's. Everybody following me or have I lost somebody? Just lemme know if further clarification is required."

Optimal body fat percentage? You mean essential body fat percentage. If you don't have at least that much body fat you're probably going to have problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage
"Essential fat is the level below which physical and physiological health would be negatively affected."

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
Optimal body fat percentage = 3%–5% in men, and 8–12% in women.

That is not the "optimal" body fat, it is the minimum to needed to survive and be functional. If I remember correctly Fuhrman recommends 12% for men and 23% for women (not certain). I don't know if Dr. McDougall has ever given any specific number but if he has I am sure it is more than the minimum. You need to have a bit of a margin in case you get ill and can't eat for a few days!


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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:46 am 
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Recent study from Boston U School of Medicine - Low vitamin D is correlated with many cancers as well as cardiac disease and immune disorders.
http://ecancer.org/news/3935-study-reve ... iduals.php

Dr Cedric Garland, long time Vit D researcher discusses the relationship between serum Vitamin D levels and various cancers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PsyaYNX1dw

Non-Profit setup to support Vit D research and public awareness
much good info and videos of researcher in this field of study
http://grassrootshealth.net/

A study published in 2007 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Lappe, et al) demonstrated a clear reduction in cancer incidence with Vit D supplementation.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/6/1586.short

All due respect to Dr McDougall for the fine work he is doing, but Vitamin D status appears to be more critical than most think - I'll go with the recommendations of the Dr Garland and other researchers to get tested and try to keep serum levels in the 40 to 60 ng/ml, with sunlight and supplements.


Last edited by peterz54 on Sun May 12, 2013 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:05 am 
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I'm sure this is posted elsewhere but can somebody give me the cliff notes on what kind of D one should take and can it be a cheap brand? I hate spending a lot of money on supplements unless it is crucial.


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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:10 am 
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sliggi111 wrote:
How can two highly respected doctors McDougall and Fuhrman who have access to the same vitamin D studies be so different in their recommendations on supplementation. McDougall says no vitamin D supplements and Fuhrman says yes.
So what does a plant foods vegan do . . . supplement or no.

The research and anecdotes sited here support my personal philosophy that medicine is much more of an art than a science.

The first Vit D level I ever had done in my life was checked in February and it was 4.2. My PMD never saw one that low. I just had it rechecked after a week in the Carribean where I allowed my self some mid-day sun everyday, causing a little tan, and it is now 18.8. I will probably take some of the supplemental medication (Ergocalciferol) that my PMD prescribed for me over the winter months.

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:16 am 
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pinkrose wrote:
Do you know anyone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition caused by D deficiency? :?:

Uhmmm, pinkrose, you know me - at least through this discussion board.

Two years ago I started to have odd, painful bone, growths. Went to PCP, had lots of blood work done, sent to orthopaedic surgeons (multiple ones because each specialize in a small area of the body) - yep I'm having all new and crazy bone growth. Hormones out of whack, blood work worrisome, but surprisingly calcium level was normal. Worked up for parathyroid tumors.......... thankfully PCP also tested Vit. D which was below detection both for the kind your body makes in response to sunlight and for the type you ingest in OTC products (I didn't take pills and I don't eat commercial products enriched with Vit. D or fish).

Actually my results, in reflection were not wholly unexpected and probably a good doctor should have anticipated this..... because, while very carefully following a McDougall diet - for a couple of years, I still managed to develop an allergy to UV sunlight, Polymorphous Light Eruption (PLE). I get an immediate hive when exposed to sunlight on most of my body - my hands and face can tolerate about an hour exposure. Needless to say I get little sun exposure.

The good news is supplementation brought back up my levels and I stopped making new bone. Other hormone levels and blood work dropped back to normal. The bad news is that some of this bone growth limits severely my choice of shoes and causes pain. I refuse surgery, so I will live with this reminder of lack of Vit D for the rest of my life.

I was on aggressive drugs for the PLE and hopefully they have been effective as I can now tolerate short exposure and I hope to slowly build up to more. I work with my doctors getting tested regularly for Vit. D so I can maintain a level within the recommendations of Dr. McDougall http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/mar/vitd.htm

Dr. McDougall offers thoughtful medical advice for the typical person, but some of us are not typical. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:48 am 
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SpartanRD wrote:

4) Now for my request. I want to ask those of you who own a Sperti light to please write about your experiences, specifically whether or not you feel investing in one was a wise decision.



I have considered getting a Sperti light, but at $400.00, it is enough to give me pause.

My doctor told me getting my Vitamin D level checked is expensive, but didn't quote a price. Mostly, I'm worried about my levels in the winter months. Guess I need to see what the price is...

If the price is significant, maybe my money would be best spent just getting the lamp for some insurance. I've also considered larger tanning beds. The Mercola D-Lite seems nice, but pricey. No offense, but he tends to set off my quack alarm.

This may just be irrational fear on my part, but my first winter on the McDougall Diet I came down with a bad case of flu. It got me to wondering if low vitamin D levels could have contributed.

It's all confusing! I prefer not to go the supplement route, but the lights are a big investment. :crybaby:

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 Post subject: Re: Vitamin D
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:50 am 
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Tom Dylan wrote:
SpartanRD wrote:

4) Now for my request. I want to ask those of you who own a Sperti light to please write about your experiences, specifically whether or not you feel investing in one was a wise decision.



I have considered getting a Sperti light, but at $400.00, it is enough to give me pause.

My doctor told me getting my Vitamin D level checked is expensive, but didn't quote a price. Mostly, I'm worried about my levels in the winter months. Guess I need to see what the price is...

If the price is significant, maybe my money would be best spent just getting the lamp for some insurance. I've also considered larger tanning beds. The Mercola D-Lite seems nice, but pricey. No offense, but he tends to set off my quack alarm.

This may just be irrational fear on my part, but my first winter on the McDougall Diet I came down with a bad case of flu. It got me to wondering if low vitamin D levels could have contributed.

It's all confusing! I prefer not to go the supplement route, but the lights are a big investment. :crybaby:

I bought the Sperti light. My husband and I both use it. Our levels increrased. You buy it once and you're done. Our doctors insist on testing us for D (and other deficiencies) and it's free (we have Kaiser). Over time, buying supplements would probably cost more. They're not cheap, and there is a potential for overdose.

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